Music Preferences

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Brain

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I was wondering about specific preferences or turn offs people have with church music. Just curious. I beg you though to be specific and not to knock on entire categories without any clear reasoning (eg, “it was written before/after 1960 therefore its automatically worthless”). I would rather know what exactly it is about the hymns you like or dislike, that make you like that sort of hymn.

I am pretty open as to the usage of hymns, with a bit of a bias, but not a huge one, for songs with or based on more traditional tunes, or even old tunes with new lyrics, which I think is due to my first 2 turn-offs.
So again, I’m pretty open to most hymns, so my preferences are best given as what things I dont like.
Note: this is for songs meant for the congregants to sing, if its a choir-led (easier to follow a complex tune if there is a choir) or choir-only peice, I’m slightly more “understanding” so long as I can still understand the words, the choir isnt destracting us from the mass, and the choir isnt being used solely in lieu of the congregation singing or overpowering the assembly’s voices.

things i dont like:
-sudden and/or ugly changes in the tune, like switching to much shorter or longer notes in the middle of a line or jumping an octave for no good reason and without any warning or “hints” in the melody.

-Random complexity or broad pitch ranges singable by people who have both natural talent and extensive training, usually such that only those particularly self-important cantors can do it (you know the type)

-Lyrics that have God singing to us instead of us singing to Him (I do make some exceptions to this one, especially if the lyrics also involve a “human” voice responding at some point, the song has a particularly beautiful message or melody, or if the hymn is based on a psalm with a “God” voice in it already. but even then, I prefer these to be reserved for communion hymns or other times when it is symbolically appropriate to be hearing a “God” voice)

-radically new-age-y metaphors, especially if they are misrepresenting what we actually believe. Catholic tradition is so rich with symbols, and its nice to hear those metaphors used in contemporary songs, creates a fusion of old and new that is rather pleasing.

-the use of a third language (ie other than vernacular or latin) at a mass that is not culturally themed, especially if the community has no real ties to the language in question. (la guadalupana, grosser gott wir loben dich, etc. are indeed very pretty songs BUT awkward outside of a culturally-themed mass) Though I am open to super-multi-lingual songs on special occasions (like singing “silent night” in Eng, Ger, Spa, and sometimes even french or latin, at the midnight christmas mass)

-Use of organ just becuase there is one there (I love the organ but that doesnt change the fact that some songs just sound bad on organs)

-lyrics or dubious, post-composition, lyric changes with an agenda behind them! especially when it messes up the song (eg, when there might have been a phonetic pattern in the lyrics or a natural resonance of a sylable with a particular note but it was ruined when the OCP-meat-grinder decided to refer to God as God, and never as He)

A few things I, personally, really like:
  • Hymns based off psalms or canticles
  • Hymns reminiscent of a specific biblical incident
  • Hymns that fit the mood of the mass they are used in (eg some thought given to liturgical or physical season and/or time of day the mass wil be)
  • Hymns about specific saints
  • Marian Hymns
  • Contemporary hymns that can be done with more classical instruments
  • Contemporary hymns that sound good on or that can even be sucessfully played on an organ
  • Familiar songs everyone knows
  • Old tunes, new lyrics
  • hymns with “manly” themes (yeah, I’m a guy… i like to hear about breastplates and swords and champions and battling satan and the like)
 
Good topic!

Generally, I agree with most of what you have posted. I dislike instruments in church (even organ…yeah I’m wierd). I just think they detract from everything. I also generally dislike the use of secularly based tunes for hymns.

My overall preference is for chant (though I love western based chant, I have a place in my heart for Greek and Middle-Eastern chant and the congregational singing used in the Russian and Ukranian Orthodox churches). In addition to this, I dislike how there are few English translations for chant tunes OR new chant tunes that use the vernacular. I think chant is FAR too unused.

The biggest turnoff that I have in church music is that its far too emotional, or at least its trying to be far too emotional. It just seems that much contemporary hymnody is trying to force me to feel something. Chant generally is simply a presentation of the text, it doesn’t try to play with you.
 
Hello,

This is such a big question with a big answer I can’t answer it in one post. I love just about everything that is sung to the glory of God. I do tend to prefer chant to hymns.

My absolute favorites are deep haunting chants that go deep into my soul. I see these more common in the Slavic Byzantine churches, though the Latin Church has a couple. Examples would be some of the Cherubic Hymns from the Carpathian region of Eastern Europe. Although in the major cities the singing is left to the choir, in the remote regions, the congregation is the choir. They all know their parts and don’t even use hymnals. It is absolutely beautiful.

A lot of the Byzantine chants have been translated into the vernacular since it has been the custom to say the liturgy in the people’s tongue. So some of the most beautiful chants are in English.
 
A lot of the Byzantine chants have been translated into the vernacular since it has been the custom to say the liturgy in the people’s tongue. So some of the most beautiful chants are in English.
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I know, and I agree with you entirely. I’d like to see it done more with Western Chant too.
 
Hello,
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pm1853:
I know, and I agree with you entirely. I’d like to see it done more with Western Chant too.
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It is, however, from what I have seen, they do a poor job of translating the text to English. Words may be deleted or added. I have seen whole verses that don’t have a single word that was in the Latin original.

One thing you can do is set the music yourself. Start with the Psalms. They are already translated. Pick a version you like (i.e. Douay-Rheims, RSV-CE, NAB, etc.) and put them to one of the eight psalm tones. This is fairly easy even if you have only a limited musical background. Play around with them and see what sounds nice.

The tones can be found here:

osb.org/gen/topics/psalmtones.html

I hope this helps.
 
oh yeah, i totally forgot about chant. unearthly. i love chants!

My favorite is spontaneous or semi-spontaneous (as in everyone has a general but unspoken understanding, generally only works with small groups) division of chants by side of the church, by gender, in rounds, etc.
 
One thing you can do is set the music yourself. Start with the Psalms. They are already translated. Pick a version you like (i.e. Douay-Rheims, RSV-CE, NAB, etc.) and put them to one of the eight psalm tones. This is fairly easy even if you have only a limited musical background. Play around with them and see what sounds nice.
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I’m ashamed to say, that with my masters degree in music, I’ve still never been able to figure out the tone charts. I sometimes have a hard time with things that are really foolishly easy, I just can’t see the obvious all to often.
 
Well, Brain has certainly met his own criterion of being specific. 🙂

As a lifelong church musician, I am a firm classicist, if somewhat broadly determined. There are many anthems (i.e., pieces for choir), even recently written, and hymns that are firmly in the classical tradition. However, I speak as one who finds the aesthetics of the Anglican communion (in practice, at least) far superior to what modern Roman Catholics usually accomplish. Does that mean that we should imitate the Episcopalians? No; in fact it is the emulation of the Protestants in the matter of hymns, the adoption of that general form with none of its substance without caring much about the musical value of what is being sung that has gotten us into so much trouble, and this problem goes back to before Vatican II when we were already saddled with such gems as “Mother Dearest, Mother Fairest.”

I don’t think a modern hymnology however understood can ever be the best solution for Catholics. I think the aesthetic and therefore ultimately pastoral (I cannot separate the two) solution is a return to traditional plainchant and polyphony (which was never traditional in the US and in fact would be a considerable innovation almost everywhere there). That is the way it is in Germany, where the custom of chanting the Ordinary (and in Latin), for instance, has never fallen out of use.

Many Catholics have no experience of aesthetically worthy worship (i.e., worthy as an offering to God) unless like me they have had for professional reasons a lot of exposure to (to take the best example) high Anglican worship. Our standards in many cases are so low that we talk about tweeking a body of “music” that should be thrown out, lock, stock, and barrel.
 
I love the music and instruments in the mass. I really enjoy singing and am learning piano. I have fun just trying to mess around with chords and playing stuff that I heard in church by ear. However, sometimes I wonder if I am too distracted by the music and the instruments. I probably enjoy the mass and desire to come because I can participate, but generally find myself jsut thinking, when is the next song so I can have fun singing again when there are other parts of the mass that don’t involve singing.

Also, being baptized Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic I used to go to the Divine Liturgy often and know it quite well. Since nearly everything is sung/chanted, even if it is a little longer than the mass I can enjoy participating in all the chanting.

Even so, I actually have got into several friendly arguements about my opinion on the necessity of music in the mass for me to desire to go. The fact that I show discontent and basically act bored and sleep when there is no music I guess showed one time when I wanted to walk out and go to another mass when I found out there was going to be no music that week at that paticular mass.
 
Music preferences? Generally classical and chant - many traditional hymns. Sorry - I know that’s very general.

If you want the congregation to sing - provide them with the music. I’ll never forget the “contemporary” service I went to where the priest asked everyone to “really sing out.” Unfortunately all they gave us were words to an unfamiliar, syncopated and irregular piece that no one knew - not even the priest sang.

Further - give us the 4 part music - invariably the pitch is way too high except for coloraturas - so even the cantor is flat.

I would prefer no cantor leading the congregation - but if you must have one choose someone who can actually sing.

Make sure the words are, at least, not heretical.

Use the same pieces frequently so the congregation can learn them. A lot of people don’t read music - so you need to get into their ears/head if you want them to sing.

Require anyone who says “when you sing you pray twice” any time within the next 50 years to undergo aversion therapy to that phrase a la Clockwork Orange.
 
As a musician, I prefer the classical music. More specifically chorus music from the rennaisaince. I love countrapunctual motets and even songs with the organ provided they are rich in harmony. I dont like anything that moves to fast… I like the music to be reverent and nothing that distracts us from the mass, such as cantors that act like its a performance or new age “Christian music”. I Hate Christian Rock music for mass. Its ok to listen to; well i dont like no matter what, but for mass I think its more important to be reverant than to enjoy the music. I dont mind gregorian chant, although, it can be boring… but easy for the congregation to join in and sing. I also dont like many instruments. Piano and Organ are about it for me. I wouldnt mind an orchestra and a brass section behind that for special events… but i hate guitar and drums in mass, especially drums. I dont even mind some of the newer music published in OCP such as ON Eagles Wings etc. But if i had my choice… it would all be from the renassaince
 
My opinion:

I’m a new Catholic, who will be in full communion with the Church very soon (!!!).

I’ve been in choirs most of my life, and have sung quite a bit of sacred music in a concert choir. In fact, I know more of the Mass in Latin than most of my friends, from singing stuff like Vivaldi’s Gloria, and Palestrina, and etc.

I expected that, since I was joining a 2000 year old Church, that my exposure to church music would become even wider.

Unfortuantely, my church uses OCP. And song sheets of Christian radio tunes.

I have three complaints about this.

Spiritually, there is too much “me” and not enough God in most of this music. A lot of it sounds like the writer wants to boost my “self-esteem.” I’m not at Mass to have my ego boosted. I’m there to be in communion with God.
All the touchy-feely, raise the self esteem stuff goes hand in hand with moral relativism. I was raised in that, and it’s hard enough getting rid of it without having its trappings at Mass.
I do not like to sing God’s words in the first person.It seems presumptive. Handel’s librettist changed “Come unto me…” (Mt 11:28-29) to “Come unto Him…” and I think he was right.
There are several songs I’ve heard at Mass that really belong in first grade at school, or at summer camp.

Second, too much stuff in the OCP has very complicated rhythms. I’m quite good at reading music, but some of the things I’ve seen have rhythms I would have to take home and practice before I could get them right. I pity the poor person, like my hubby, who can’t tell an eighth note from a whole note.

It is not fair to the congregation to give them music they have no hope of being able to read. Shifts from 4/4 to 2/4 or 3/4, and back? Sheesh! Ranges all over the scale? Sometimes it makes my throat hurt, and I’ve got a solid 2 octaves.

Last, while they aren’t always out of place, I think there’s far too much music in OCP that uses diminished chords. Sad stuff should be in a minor key; happy stuff (like Glorias and Hallelujahs) should be in a major key. Just about everything should end with a cadence, not leave us hanging.

Give me the old thunderers like A Mighty Fortress and Once To Every Man and Nation. They may be Protestant, but not very…

cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/i/mightyfo.htm
cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/oncetoev.htm
 
Ah, the OCP meat grinder…

Sorry, broke my own rule…

specifically, they have a habit of esentially doing every thing on my “bad” list.
 
That’s funny, I was just thinking about this topic not too long ago, since when I was in Mass this week, every song that was played was part of my “list of songs that should be permanently banned.”

Here’s what I don’t like:
  1. Using the melodies of old hymns and either changing the language or completely writing a different song. For example, I love “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” but “Sing a New Church” is just bad poetry in my opinion.
  2. Music that teaches heresy. “Precious Body Precious Blood, here IN bread and wine…” NO! If that’s not what the writer meant, then they didn’t do a good job of clearly expressing what he meant.
  3. The use of a lot of modern instruments. I’m sorry, I know that’s really general, but I just don’t care for guitars and drums in church music that much. It just seems like since Mass is a special event, the music should reflect that. And I can hear those instruments on any popular radio station.
  4. Hymns that change melody. “Hail Thee, Festival Day” is way up there on my list of bad hymns. It’s not bad when sung by a really good choir, but considering there’s multiple melodies, it’s NOT congregation friendly at all!!!
  5. The use of other languages when it’s not the general culture of the congregation (Latin is not included). I will NEVER understand why some parishes choose to do this…
  6. Songs that end on VERY bad chords. I can’t think of anything specific off the top of my head, but I have heard the occasional Communion hymn which ended on a chord and I really didn’t know it was finished because it sounded incomplete. I don’t run into this TOO often though.
As you can probably tell, I like the traditional hymns a lot. I think that most of them definitely give praise and glory to God. In my opinion, you just can’t compare “Onward Christian Soldiers” to “We Are Marching in the Light of God” (even though both essentially have the same message). And “We Come to Your Feast” which talks about the linen on the altar being “the fabric of our lives” is just not well written (no offense intended to anyone who really does like these songs, it’s just not what I care for). That being said, there are some contemporary songs that I do like (Be Not Afraid is one, though not as a funeral song as seems to be the growing trend).

I actually LOVE the organ. I love the sound of it, and I have to say, it’s made some of the songs that I haven’t necessarily cared for in the past sound so much better. Now, I don’t mind if a piano is substitued (especially if it’s between that and an out of tune organ…which is just BAD). But I just think that with certain hymns (such as A Mighty Fortress is Our God and All Creatures That on Earth Do Dwell) some of the magic is gone without the organ.
 
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johnnykins:
Further - give us the 4 part music - invariably the pitch is way too high except for coloraturas - so even the cantor is flat.
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AMEN - good heavens, why don’t the hymnals include 4-part music? Though I have experience in choirs as a tenor, I can’t find the part easily myself, and find that one-part, everyone-sing-the-melody is just plain uninspiring.
 
Basically for me, if its not chant- either modern or somewhat tweaked compositions versions of chant, then it should be 3 or 4-part harmony which is not off the wall with weird modern twists such as “jazz harmony”.

-Rock is out
-baby songs are out (ie. the really whiny ones where you think you’re more in a nursery rather than @ Mass).
-I hate instrumental music @ Mass other than the organ.
-if you’re gonna use an organ, make sure it doesn’t give the people a headache: ie. make sure its not too loud so people can’t hear what is being sung.
  • clown masses with honky tonky music are out
  • masses with “yoga” meditation, other religious music themes are sooo out for me.
If I know that a Mass is going to use “modern” music, I simply won’t go.
 
**Mass music has become so derisive lately that chant sounds better each time I here it. Motion and commotion Masses turn me off. Songs like "Sing a New Church " make me want to sing the same song Jesus sang 2000 years ago not a **latter-day campfire ditty . Pray that we survive the music reformation.
 
tom.wineman said:
**Mass music has become so derisive lately that chant sounds better each time I here it. Motion and commotion Masses turn me off. Songs like "Sing a New Church " make me want to sing the same song Jesus sang 2000 years ago not a **latter-day ****campfire ditty . Pray that we survive the music reformation.
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Oh man, “Sing a New Church…” the song I refer to as the politically correct song of the Catholic Church…
 
I have never heared it.
what is it about sing a new church that you dont like?
 
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