Muslim saints

[mark_a]

Forgive me if thess questions have already been asked.

Do Muslims have saints similar to Christian saints?

If so, are any of them from pre-Muhammed times?

Do Muslims believe that there was an “underground” Islam from the first through the sixth centuries, similar to the way some Christian and quasi-Christian groups claim “true” beliefs about Christ went underground before the end of the first century?

Sorry for the run-on sentence.

No disrespect intended if some of the terminology is incorrect.

 

[mark_a]

Bumping for one more try.

 

[Shenango]

Hey Mark,

Muslims have a concept similar to that of saints in Christianity, but we don’t call them saints. In Islam we have the martyr, who is someone who gives their life on behalf of the faith (usually by being killed by an enemy). Our faith teaches that martyrs are forgiven all sins (except for any financial debts they may have had), and granted the highest level of Paradise on account of their sacrifice. On Judgement Day, martyrs are given the privilege by God of pleading on behalf of their loved ones and families in front of the Almighty’s throne. And while the rest of us truly sleep when we die, Muslims believe that martyrs don’t really die, but are kept alive with God until Judgement Day.

Unlike in Christianity, however, Muslim martyrs do not have any superhuman powers, and cannot do anything to help us while we’re here on earth. Their reward is for themselves only. We do not pray to them, and don’t believe we can communicate with them. Also, we don’t keep a set list of martyrs or give their names titles (like “St.” etc.), and use them as inspiration in our theological or daily lives. There could literally be hundreds of thousands of martyrs for the faith. And while we honor their collective sacrifice in our memories, we don’t distinguish each individually for acknowledgement (nor is such a thing really possible, given their numbers, and the fact that many could be unknown). They essentially have no function in our religious life.

Since Islam views itself not as a new religion, but merely the fulfillment and final expression of the faith of Abraham (PBUH), which was followed by Moses, Jesus (PBUT) and many others, there were certainly faithful believers in the God of Islam who were martyred for their beliefs long before Muhammad (PBUH) was even born. Abraham (PBUH) himself was almost martyred for his faith.

To answer your second question, Muslims do not believe that ther was some sort of “underground” Islam during the first Muslim century, that resurfaced later. The true Islam was always above ground, and even the deviant sects that split off from it were out in the open.

 

[hawk]

Shenango:

Unlike in Christianity, however, Muslim martyrs do not have any superhuman powers, and cannot do anything to help us while we’re here on earth. Their reward is for themselves only. We do not pray to them, and don’t believe we can communicate with them.

This is something strange, how then do muslims explain how the prophet mohammed (pbuh) spoke to the other prophets (pbut) during the miraj?

And what were those prophets doing

a) praying
b) in jennah

when they should be dead?

 

[Shenango]

hawk:

when they should be dead?

Hawk, this post is off topic. I invite you to open a new thread if you want to discuss this.

 

[hawk]

Shenango:

Hawk, this post is off topic. I invite you to open a new thread if you want to discuss this.

Shenango,

we started a thread, but there was no answer forthcoming.

I myself am not interested in debating this issue, but a friend of mine is, you know where to find him!

Go to it boy!

I say what do you think of sufi saints? and learned shaykhs?

 

[Shenango]

hawk:

I say what do you think of sufi saints? and learned shaykhs?

What about them?

 

[mark_a]

Shenango:

To answer your second question, Muslims do not believe that ther was some sort of “underground” Islam during the first Muslim century, that resurfaced later. The true Islam was always above ground, and even the deviant sects that split off from it were out in the open.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Please keep in mind that I presume to know nothing about Islam. I may need some help with the facts. To clarify the question I was trying to ask:

From an Islamic point of view:

• Jews hit the mark closer than Christians, apparent because the Koran includes at least some of the old testement.
• Jesus came along and threw a Hail Mary, the Christians caught the ball but ran the wrong way with it.

Was the ball game still going on between the time of Jesus and Mohammed?

 

[mark_a]

mark a:

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Please keep in mind that I presume to know nothing about Islam. I may need some help with the facts. To clarify the question I was trying to ask:

From an Islamic point of view:

• Jews hit the mark closer than Christians, apparent because the Koran includes at least some of the old testement.
• Jesus came along and threw a Hail Mary, the Christians caught the ball but ran the wrong way with it.

Was the ball game still going on between the time of Jesus and Mohammed?

Bump for one last try.

 

[Shenango]

mark a:

*]Jews hit the mark closer than Christians, apparent because the Koran includes at least some of the old testement.

This is true, but just to clarify–and though I don’t think you’re actually saying that the Qur’an copied the Old Testament–many Old Testament characters and story are also to be found in the Qur’an yes, though in somewhat different versions. But also, there are to be found accounts of Jesus (PBUH), his message to Israel, and the miracles that he performed, which bear similarity to some of the New Testament.

Recall that Muhammad (PBUH) was totally illiterate, that there were no Arabic Bibles in his time, and that most of the Qur’anic revelation discussing stories in common with the Old Testament came while he was still in Mecca, where there were no Jews whatsoever. It was not until that he moved to Medina that Muhammad (PBUH) encountered a Jewish community for the first time.

*]Jesus came along and threw a Hail Mary, the Christians caught the ball but ran the wrong way with it.

Was the ball game still going on between the time of Jesus and Mohammed?

Well, the Qur’an makes clear that Jesus’ message was for the Children of Israel only, not for the world or Gentiles. Nevertheless, it judges Gentile Christians by their claim that they “caught the ball” (more like intercepted!), and yes, as you said, corrupted and forgot much of it.

About the ball game still going on at Muhammad’s time, it seems to me that you’re asking here whether there were still “good” Christians in Muhammad’s time. And the answer to that is yes, there were some Unitarian Christians in Arabia, as well, it seems in Ethiopia, who did not believe Jesus (PBUH) was God, but merely followed him as a great messenger.

 

[Lance]

~~~~~
About the ball game still going on at Muhammad’s time, it seems to me that you’re asking here whether there were still “good” Christians in Muhammad’s time. And the answer to that is yes, there were some Unitarian Christians in Arabia, as well, it seems in Ethiopia, who did not believe Jesus (PBUH) was God, but merely followed him as a great messenger.

Sounds to me like you are saying that us Catholics were and are “bad” Christians.

 

[Shenango]

Lance:

Sounds to me like you are saying that us Catholics were and are “bad” Christians.

Well, obviously I don’t mean “bad” and “good” in the sense that they are bad people. But there are followers of Jesus (PBUH) who were guided, and those who were misguided. My faith would call Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants all misguided just the same. They’re not bad people though.

 

[mark_a]

Hello and thanks for answering my questions again. Please know that my sources are Christian and that my memory is not crystal clear.

–many Old Testament characters and story are also to be found in the Qur’an yes, though in somewhat different versions.

I find this very hard. Did the Jews get their books wrong too?

Recall that Muhammad (PBUH) was totally illiterate, that there were no Arabic Bibles in his time, and that most of the Qur’anic revelation discussing stories in common with the Old Testament came while he was still in Mecca, where there were no Jews whatsoever.

I think I read that Mohammed often met “men of the book” (jews) when he traveled and enjoyed talking with them.

whether there were still “good” Christians in Muhammad’s time. And the answer to that is yes, there were some Unitarian Christians in Arabia, as well, it seems in Ethiopia, who did not believe Jesus (PBUH) was God, but merely followed him as a great messenger.

I also read that he was influenced early on by Nestorians. Is this consistent with Unitarian Christians in Arabia and in Ethiopia?

My question is this: If the Jews didn’t get it right, and the Christians corrupted it further, who carried on the faith from the time of Abraham to Mohammed?

Or did the Jews gradually corrupt the faith sometime after Abraham, Noah, Moses or someone else?

Did correctness of faith (my words) go “underground” after being corrupted until set straight by Mohammed? Were there people who believed as Mohammed believed down through God’s people’s history?

Thanks again.

 

[mark_a]

Thought I’d take another shot at getting these questions answered.

Hello and thanks for answering my questions again. Please know that my sources are Christian and that my memory is not crystal clear.

Originally Posted by Shenango
–many Old Testament characters and story are also to be found in the Qur’an yes, though in somewhat different versions.

I find this very hard. Did the Jews get their books wrong too?

Recall that Muhammad (PBUH) was totally illiterate, that there were no Arabic Bibles in his time, and that most of the Qur’anic revelation discussing stories in common with the Old Testament came while he was still in Mecca, where there were no Jews whatsoever.

I think I read that Mohammed often met “men of the book” (jews) when he traveled and enjoyed talking with them.

whether there were still “good” Christians in Muhammad’s time. And the answer to that is yes, there were some Unitarian Christians in Arabia, as well, it seems in Ethiopia, who did not believe Jesus (PBUH) was God, but merely followed him as a great messenger.

I also read that he was influenced early on by Nestorians. Is this consistent with Unitarian Christians in Arabia and in Ethiopia?

My question is this: If the Jews didn’t get it right, and the Christians corrupted it further, who carried on the faith from the time of Abraham to Mohammed?

Or did the Jews gradually corrupt the faith sometime after Abraham, Noah, Moses or someone else?

Did correctness of faith (my words) go “underground” after being corrupted until set straight by Mohammed? Were there people who believed as Mohammed believed down through God’s people’s history?

Thanks again.

---