Muslims - Care to clarify?

[eliasaph99]

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

The above is a quote from the Hadith compiled by Bukhari. My understanding is that this is Islamic Scripture, not held to be on the same level as the Qu’ran, but to be trustworthy and from Allah.

Above, we see Muhammad give Maslama permission to lie after requesting that he murder someone for him. Please tell me how this fits in with the idea of an honorable messenger and ethical message.

 

[Adamma]

I doubt you would hear an Islamic type herein or find a Muslim apologetic. How can anyone defend the trash written in the Koran, like to kill us infidels as righteous deeds and then the so called “virgin rewards program” for the servant whom does this to please Alah. Have you read the new book The Truth About Muhammed? I plan to get the book as it reveals how ridiculous these premises are on any level. Sorry I cannot show alot of respect herein, but I cannot even see this as religion. Where are the denouncers of terrorism and Muslim wrong doings? I heard that 80% of mosques in the USA, have allowed their agendad teachings that preach hating the USA and our culture etc. (non-tolerance). Thus I believe these folks in general do not wish to assimilate into our culture but someday take over via shear numbers and avoid a war (cowardice method). This is happening around the globe it appears. If this thinking is way off base, I would listen to other views with an open mind. Just show me examples too.

(Another poster mentions- Islam is as Islam Does…Amen to that saying)

 

[Reuben_J]

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

The above is a quote from the Hadith compiled by Bukhari. My understanding is that this is Islamic Scripture, not held to be on the same level as the Qu’ran, but to be trustworthy and from Allah.

Above, we see Muhammad give Maslama permission to lie after requesting that he murder someone for him. Please tell me how this fits in with the idea of an honorable messenger and ethical message.

I have very BIG problem with this hadith. Mohammad allowed killing and lying. Jesus would never do that under any circumstamces yet Islam claims Jesus a prophet but this hadith makes it abundantly clear that the two contradicts each other here. Even when his life was at stake during his arrest, Jesus reprimanded Peter when the latter tried to fight back to defend his master.

Choose which one is your pick. As for me, he is none other than Jesus, the Lord and Savior, and the Word of God.

 

[meedo]

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

The above is a quote from the Hadith compiled by Bukhari. My understanding is that this is Islamic Scripture, not held to be on the same level as the Qu’ran, but to be trustworthy and from Allah.

Above, we see Muhammad give Maslama permission to lie after requesting that he murder someone for him. Please tell me how this fits in with the idea of an honorable messenger and ethical message.

Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf aided the pagans with Money and arms to annihilate the Muslims. He hated muslims and Islam with all his heart and wished them all dead. Therefroe he is at war with Muslims. And yes the hadeeth is correct and authentic and i see nothing wrong to lie to him because he is at war with the people who are lying to him. If he is happy to annihilate the believers then he deserves what he had.

meedo

 

[eliasaph99]

Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf aided the pagans with Money and arms to annihilate the Muslims. He hated muslims and Islam with all his heart and wished them all dead. Therefroe he is at war with Muslims. And yes the hadeeth is correct and authentic and i see nothing wrong to lie to him because he is at war with the people who are lying to him. If he is happy to annihilate the believers then he deserves what he had.

meedo

I don’t see anything like what you’ve said indicated in the above Hadith. It says that Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf said some things against Islam. It goes on to say that Mohammad ordered a death sentence for this.

I think the previous posters insight poses the best question and I would like you to try to answer it. How can Mohammad and Jesus Christ be teaching the same religion? Jesus said that if an enemy strikes us on the cheek, we are to offer him the other cheek also. He said that we are to forgive all men and love those who wish to do us harm.

On the other hand, gossiping about Mohammad earned a death sentence in his system. Where is the consistency? How are the two things the same?

 

[meedo]

I don’t see anything like what you’ve said indicated in the above Hadith. It says that Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf said some things against Islam. It goes on to say that Mohammad ordered a death sentence for this.

I think the previous posters insight poses the best question and I would like you to try to answer it. How can Mohammad and Jesus Christ be teaching the same religion? Jesus said that if an enemy strikes us on the cheek, we are to offer him the other cheek also. He said that we are to forgive all men and love those who wish to do us harm.

On the other hand, gossiping about Mohammad earned a death sentence in his system. Where is the consistency? How are the two things the same?

The above hadeeth doesnt list everiything kaab did. It is just teh culmination of his battle with Muslims. What you purport Jesus is teaching ofcourse is not what Muhammed teaches or else people wouldnt be jailing theieves for stealing or killing criminals for murder. For the sake of portraying Christianity as valid then one would have to say that Jesus never said the above quote or may be he was misunderstood. God always deemed many peopel worthless. Such as Pharough and the likes of him. Kaab is simply one of them. Gossiping about the prophet happened all the time . hec there ws hypocrites known in the Medina and they were not harmed. If you read the Story of Islam you will se that clearly. Kaab was a different case of a hateful enemy of believers and teh wrld was better off him.

 

[eliasaph99]

The above hadeeth doesnt list everiything kaab did. It is just teh culmination of his battle with Muslims. What you purport Jesus is teaching ofcourse is not what Muhammed teaches or else people wouldnt be jailing theieves for stealing or killing criminals for murder. For the sake of portraying Christianity as valid then one would have to say that Jesus never said the above quote or may be he was misunderstood. God always deemed many peopel worthless. Such as Pharough and the likes of him. Kaab is simply one of them. Gossiping about the prophet happened all the time . hec there ws hypocrites known in the Medina and they were not harmed. If you read the Story of Islam you will se that clearly. Kaab was a different case of a hateful enemy of believers and teh wrld was better off him.

Please restate your sentence three and four above. I don’t understand them at all.

God has never deemed any person or group of people worthless. He has become angry (anthropomorphically) and released his wrath on them. But, this is not the same thing as, nor even related to, them being worthless. No human is worthless, because all humans are created in the image of God. In the New Testament we are told that God is willing that all would be saved. He will welcome all, even the most blasphemous sinner, and He calls us to model His love in the world. He calls us to literally represent it and be its image to the people around us.

I have read much about the History of Islam. From all three sides, the believers in it, the enemies of it, and the secular historians who try to pretend that they have no side. From all accounts, it is tragic and warlike. Truly it is the story of the spreading of an oppressive cloud, the enemy of love and goodness, the enemy of God and His people.

 

[Booklover]

The above hadeeth doesnt list everiything kaab did. It is just teh culmination of his battle with Muslims. What you purport Jesus is teaching ofcourse is not what Muhammed teaches or else people wouldnt be jailing theieves for stealing or killing criminals for murder. For the sake of portraying Christianity as valid then one would have to say that Jesus never said the above quote or may be he was misunderstood. God always deemed many peopel worthless. Such as Pharough and the likes of him. Kaab is simply one of them. Gossiping about the prophet happened all the time . hec there ws hypocrites known in the Medina and they were not harmed. If you read the Story of Islam you will se that clearly. Kaab was a different case of a hateful enemy of believers and teh wrld was better off him.

This is a very disturbing post that gives a real insight of Muslims’ mentality and their feelings of superiority! How can anyone believe that God would call anyone worthless??

 

[exoflare]

This is a very disturbing post that gives a real insight of Muslims’ mentality and their feelings of superiority! How can anyone believe that God would call anyone worthless??

Yeah, I second that. But sadly I’m not surprised by this.

 

[janG]

Yes, governments are responsible for protecting their citizens from criminals, but are they allowed to lie to do that? Is it really ok to assassinate the accused with no trial, no witnesses, no evidence, no chance to present a defense? Even Jesus had a trial. Is that how anyone would want their government to treat them if they are accused of a crime?

I would also point out that the man is guilty of treason ONLY if you happen to believe Mohammed’s claims that he was told by some “angel” that it was ok to establish his Islamic dictatorship by force, and only if you are willing to overlook that while Mohammed established his dictatorship he repeatedly broke most of the 10 Commandments (killing, stealing, raping, adultery, etc.) Otherwise the guy was only trying to defend himself from the unjust aggression and oppression of Mohammed and his followers.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Sirach 15:
[19] his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every deed of man.
[20] He has not commanded any one to be ungodly,
and he has not given any one permission to sin.

Sirach 20:
[26] The disposition of a liar brings disgrace,
and his shame is ever with him.

Rev.21
[8] But as for cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

If Mohammed was so willing to lie to murder someone opposed to him, why should anyone believe he wasn’t willing to lie about his revelations as well?

 

[Booklover]

Yes, governments are responsible for protecting their citizens from criminals, but are they allowed to lie to do that? Is it really ok to assassinate the accused with no trial, no witnesses, no evidence, no chance to present a defense? Even Jesus had a trial. Is that how anyone would want their government to treat them if they are accused of a crime?

I would also point out that the man is guilty of treason ONLY if you happen to believe Mohammed’s claims that he was told by some “angel” that it was ok to establish his Islamic dictatorship by force, and only if you are willing to overlook that while Mohammed established his dictatorship he repeatedly broke most of the 10 Commandments (killing, stealing, raping, adultery, etc.) Otherwise the guy was only trying to defend himself from the unjust aggression and oppression of Mohammed and his followers.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Sirach 15:
[19] his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every deed of man.
[20] He has not commanded any one to be ungodly,
and he has not given any one permission to sin.

Sirach 20:
[26] The disposition of a liar brings disgrace,
and his shame is ever with him.

Rev.21
[8] But as for cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

If Mohammed was so willing to lie to murder someone opposed to him, why should anyone believe he wasn’t willing to lie about his revelations as well?

Excellent points, Jan! Muslims we’re waiting for your reply!

Vickie