Muslims, Jesus, and Alcohol

[swariffin]

I just explained in the i am an atheist thread how there is no such thing as free will.

Then how God hold you responsible for your sins? What’s the reason?

 

[ralphinal]

Thats one of the points. Eve was too naive, and so was her husband who did not think at all and just gave in to peer pressure. They were only a couple of years old, so young that they have not even discovered sex yet. Kids. Kids baited with candy and a persuasive used-car salesman!

I see what you are saying, but I do not read it the same way. I agree that the serpent had a lot to do with it, but it was not just that she was naive.

Well if you put it that way! However I’m having a hard time reconciling figurative speech here…like if God knew that Pharoah would say no then whats up with the statement “…the Lord hardened Pharoah’s heart”. As if some external force tampered with the man’s neurons to tip his decision making capabilities. Whats the figurative speech here?

The part that God forced Pharoah to feel a certain way. It flies in the face of free will.

 

[ralphinal]

Maybe this analogy will make sense.

If you go to make a baby it not necessarily that you want thousands of sperm to get flushed down the toilet, but you do want just one sperm to make it into the egg to create life.

If that one sperm is like goodness that results in everlasting life, and all those thousands are like evil that results in death, then it’s not necessarily that God wants evil, but it’s there as part of the plan to create everlasting life.

You are still not answering the question. Does God ever MAKE someone sin in order to do something else, or does God make other options availble because someone sins? Does God CAUSE evil or permit it? Do I sin because I want to or because God pre-ordained me to sin?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You are still not answering the question. Does God ever MAKE someone sin in order to do something else, or does God make other options availble because someone sins? Does God CAUSE evil or permit it? Do I sin because I want to or because God pre-ordained me to sin?

Sure, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart for one.

 

[ralphinal]

Sure, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart for one.

Assuming that I accept this as an answer, you are saying that God will force someone to sin. God will assist in someone’s evil. That the enemies of the soul are not just the flesh, the world, and the devil, but God Himself.

See my point? God is all good. God hates sin. God DOES NOT hate the sinner. By forcing someone to sin, God is doing that which is against his nature. God does not contribute to the evil of man.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Assuming that I accept this as an answer, you are saying that God will force someone to sin. God will assist in someone’s evil. That the enemies of the soul are not just the flesh, the world, and the devil, but God Himself.

See my point? God is all good. God hates sin. God DOES NOT hate the sinner. By forcing someone to sin, God is doing that which is against his nature. God does not contribute to the evil of man.

Then you make Satan an equal god that God doesn’t have the power to stop if He wants, which is a no-no in monotheism. Read the story of Job, God approves of Satan trying to tempt Job to curse God.

 

[tawheedah]

The way you told us, it seem he did. At first wine was allowed, then later it was forbidden. It was a mistake to allow it at first, was it not?

Surah 2 Verse 106:

“If We abrogate any verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it by a better or a similar one. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?”

when a verse is revealed to cancel out an earlier provision of revelation, this is called naskh, or ‘abrogation’. Allah has over the centuries sent new prophets and books to fulfill the needs of a world whose culture and civilisation is in constant change. The verses abrogated within the Quran in text however are very few in number

this is the commentary in the quran with translation and commentary that I have from the WhyIslam project. It can be applied to the alcohol becoming haram verses.

 

[ralphinal]

Then you make Satan an equal god that God doesn’t have the power to stop if He wants, which is a no-no in monotheism. Read the story of Job, God approves of Satan trying to tempt Job to curse God.

No, it doesn’t. Satan cannot make anyone do anything. He can temp, mislead, lie, or trick someone into doing things, but it is up to them… Satan has no power to force or compell. The intro to Job has long been considered alagory. It is not a word for word telling of why the bad things happened. The point of Job is that God has a plan and that God’s ways are not man’s ways, but we should praise God in good times and bad.

God can stop Satan at any time. I know why we feel God doesn’t simply end the Devil’s existance. Why do you think he lets him run free?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, it doesn’t. Satan cannot make anyone do anything. He can temp, mislead, lie, or trick someone into doing things, but it is up to them… Satan has no power to force or compell. The intro to Job has long been considered alagory. It is not a word for word telling of why the bad things happened. The point of Job is that God has a plan and that God’s ways are not man’s ways, but we should praise God in good times and bad.

God can stop Satan at any time. I know why we feel God doesn’t simply end the Devil’s existance. Why do you think he lets him run free?

If it doesn’t then we know God is there in control of any evil carried out. There is evil so we can know that God is better.

 

[swariffin]

If it doesn’t then we know God is there in control of any evil carried out. There is evil so we can know that God is better.

That what is called by the freewill. Satan cannot force people to do sins. Satan can only trick, seduce, and fool us, but it is ourselves who fall into Satan’s lie to commit sins. God never create human with a certain preprogram sets of instructions to do sins or do goods. God never create robots. There is God, so we know what is evil, not the other way around. Who that Adam and Eve knew first? God or the Serpent/Devil? You can refer to the Genesis chapter 1-3.

 

[planten]

A prophet who had nothing to teach.

Not so. There is a Quran which is a revealed book. Not like bible which seems to be inspired. Revelation is much higher than inspiration. Quran is a voluminous book, all revealed, every word of it. There is plenty of advice in the Quran for a good living.

Muhammad gave a law to his followers like did Moses a.s. He did not leave his men in disarray as did Jesus a.s. The law (and guidance) given by Muhammad is the only law after the law of Moses a.s. Muhammad has taught us full praise of Abraham, issac, jacob, Moses and Jesus. a.s.

The christians should be careful about Muhammad. I ask the christians “Who believed in Jesus as a man of God except Muhammad.” There is no one. The Jews do not believe in Jesus as anything at all. The atheists do not believe in Jesus. It is only the christians who believe in Jesus. Apart from that, it is only the Muslims who believe in Jesus (whatever the belief, is not bad). Christians please tell me who believes in Jesus except the Muslims? Is there any one?? No. Nobody.

If the world forgets about Muhammad or if christians deny Muhammad’s teaching then it will be good-bye to Jesus from the Muslims. Muslims believe in Jesus and his mother Mary because of the Quran only. (Later I will give my reply about drinking of wine etc).

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That what is called by the freewill. Satan cannot force people to do sins. Satan can only trick, seduce, and fool us, but it is ourselves who fall into Satan’s lie to commit sins. God never create human with a certain preprogram sets of instructions to do sins or do goods. God never create robots. There is God, so we know what is evil, not the other way around. Who that Adam and Eve knew first? God or the Serpent/Devil? You can refer to the Genesis chapter 1-3.

But if you think you can just decide for yourself to do good by your own power then what need is there for God to help people do good? This is the atheist’s dream, that humanity can build a utopia without God by their own will.

But rather, any good people do, they do it because God makes them do it, and it is their gift from God.

 

[Sariya]

Let me try another angle. Does God want people to sin? If someone is avoiding sin and the sin is part of the plan, does God make that person sin? Does God need us to sin?

God does not NEED us to do anything. We NEED him. We need to SUBMIT to Him in order to be successful.

Human beings have free will in the sense that we have the capability to decide what we want to do. The Qur’an clearly lists what is permitted for us and what is prohibited, we must abstain from all that have been prohibited for us and adhere to all that has been prescribed to us. All that has been prohibited for us e.g alcohol, games of chance, fornication before marriage, free mixing between men and women etc are all things that, if we were to stray unto such ways, would not only impact us negatively in the after life, but in this life too. So therefore, we have free will in the sense that it’s up to us whether we’re foolish enough to disobey the orders of our Lord or whether we submit to His will.

Someone asked a question along the lines of “what is the point in our being here if God has already decided who will enter paradise and who will dwell in hell?” Well, our paths are already written put for us, God already knows what we will do and what we will decide, He knows where we will reside in the end, but it is up to us to make the decisions and perform the actions that get us there. I think what the brother meant when he said that we do not have free will is that it’s already been made crystal clear what is good for us and what is bad for us, what we must do to enter Paradise and what we must to to enter the Fire, so why would our will revolve around anything other that doing what we have been asked to do by our creator?

Allah knows best.

 

[jakasaki]

Hi there Sariya - Welcome to CAF.

Please read the forum rules before posting. Threads which are over 1 year old, may not be brought forward.

If there is something you wish to discuss from this thread, start a new one.