Muslims

[Athanasius18]

What exactly is meant in the Catechism when it says “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims.” (841). Surely this does not mean that Muslims will be saved just by acknowledging “the Creator”, but this is what the Catechism says. If this is not true, then why does the Catechism make this so confusing for people? I was always under the assumption that the Church has taught that Muslims do not even worship the same God since they deny the Trinity and thus worship a god of their imagination. Thanks for the help.

 

[Franze]

Jews and Muslims pray the same God than Christians, because the three goes from Abraham, because you say that jews pray the same God than Christians?, they refuse Christ that is the root of our religion?, greetings

 

[wcknight]

The Pope said that those who do not have the fullness of faith to believe as we do, yet lead rightgeous and up right lives will share in the building of the Kingdom of God.
I take that to mean, people who are raised in other faiths and follow God’s will as best they can, can be saved. I doubt terrorists can really justify killing other folks as following God’s will. Even the Koran condemns killing innocents (and it specifically tells jihadist not to attack Christian cities).

It is similar to St Paul’s statement that unBaptism can become Baptism for people who are just and upright.

It makes perfect sense, as folks born into Christian families are more than likely to become Christian themselves. Whereas, a Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim family will in all likehood raise their children similarly. Some of these people will not even encounter a Christian until their own religion is well ingrained into their psyche.

regards, wc

 

[Malgosia]

wcknight:

The Pope said that those who do not have the fullness of faith to believe as we do, yet lead rightgeous and up right lives will share in the building of the Kingdom of God.
I take that to mean, people who are raised in other faiths and follow God’s will as best they can, can be saved. I doubt terrorists can really justify killing other folks as following God’s will. Even the Koran condemns killing innocents (and it specifically tells jihadist not to attack Christian cities).

wc

Actually, Muhammad’s revelation was progressive, and lasted 23 years. From the first 13 years, when he resided in Mecca, come revelation of tolerance towards Jews and Christians as “People of the Book”, who received valid revelation.

But as Muhammad did not manage to convert almost any Jews and Christians with just kind words he changed his tactic. He conquered the city of Medina, and moved there. The revelation of the last 10 years of his preaching is very different from Mecca time.
Those verses talk of fight with the unbelievers (all those who do not acknowledge Allah as God, and Muhammad as his prophet). This includes Jews and Christians. These are so called “verses of the sword”. The last reveled verses of Koran say something like that: Fight till there is no unbelief, and faith is for Allah alone in the whole world.

How do Muslims reconcile these differences in revelation? The Koran itself gives them guidance. It says: “If We (meaning Allah) abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, we bring a better one or a similar to it. Don’t you know that nothing is impossible to Allah?” (Sura 2:102)

The principle that Allah led Muhammad in progressive revelation, and the newer verses override the older ones is called “nasikh”.
Therefore the verses of the sword cancel verses talking of tolerance, kindness and religious freedom of Jews and Christians.

This principle is widely accepted in Islam. Muhammad practiced it himself. He personally led at least 20 raids on Jewish villages where all men were slaughtered, and women and children were taken as slaves.

60% of Koranic verses talk of jihad (invasion in the name of Islam).
Christians and Jews are shown as those who corrupted their scriptures, therefore a fair target for conversion, along with the rest of non-Islamic world.

Therefore, even though Koran may be condemning killing of innocents, or attack on Christian cities, these verses have been cancelled by summons to spread Islam everywhere with whatever means necessary. So actually jihadists do justify the killings using Koran, and they have all the right to do it.:nope:

 

[Malgosia]

wcknight:

The Pope said that those who do not have the fullness of faith to believe as we do, yet lead rightgeous and up right lives will share in the building of the Kingdom of God.
I take that to mean, people who are raised in other faiths and follow God’s will as best they can, can be saved. I doubt terrorists can really justify killing other folks as following God’s will. Even the Koran condemns killing innocents (and it specifically tells jihadist not to attack Christian cities).

wc

Actually, Muhammad’s revelation was progressive, and lasted 23 years. From the first 13 years, when he resided in Mecca, come revelation of tolerance towards Jews and Christians as “People of the Book”, who received valid revelation.

But as Muhammad did not manage to convert almost any Jews and Christians with just kind words he changed his tactic. He conquered the city of Medina, and moved there. The revelation of the last 10 years of his preaching is very different from Mecca time.
Those verses talk of fight with the unbelievers (all those who do not acknowledge Allah as God, and Muhammad as his prophet). This includes Jews and Christians. These are so called “verses of the sword”. The last reveled verses of Koran say something like that: Fight till there is no unbelief, and faith is for Allah alone in the whole world.

How do Muslims reconcile these differences in revelation? The Koran itself gives them guidance. It says: “If We (meaning Allah) abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, we bring a better one or a similar to it. Don’t you know that nothing is impossible to Allah?” (Sura 2:102)

The principle that Allah led Muhammad in progressive revelation, and the newer verses override the older ones is called “nasikh”.
Therefore the verses of the sword cancel verses talking of tolerance, kindness and religious freedom of Jews and Christians.

This principle is widely accepted in Islam. Muhammad practiced it himself. He personally led at least 20 raids on Jewish villages where all men were slaughtered, and women and children were taken as slaves.

60% of Koranic verses talk of jihad (invasion in the name of Islam).
Christians and Jews are shown as those who corrupted their scriptures, therefore a fair target for conversion, along with the rest of non-Islamic world.

Therefore, even though Koran may be condemning killing of innocents, or attack on Christian cities, these verses have been cancelled by summons to spread Islam everywhere with whatever means necessary. So actually jihadists do justify the killings using Koran, and they have all the right to.:nope:

 

[BulldogCath]

Another example of the defection of the church from all past teachings in the spirit of Vatican II and ecumenism. Unacceptable-but I am sure that many on the left side of this board feel that , hey if the church is now saying that Moslems will be saved…then for sure I am going to be saved as I abide by some of the rules of the church, go to Mass when I can, confession so often and actually believe in Jesus!

So the church just made it easier for me to get to heaven and that is great—This Vatican II think is the best!

Athanasius18:

What exactly is meant in the Catechism when it says “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims.” (841). Surely this does not mean that Muslims will be saved just by acknowledging “the Creator”, but this is what the Catechism says. If this is not true, then why does the Catechism make this so confusing for people? I was always under the assumption that the Church has taught that Muslims do not even worship the same God since they deny the Trinity and thus worship a god of their imagination. Thanks for the help.