Must the True Church be Always be clearly visible?

[CutlerB]

Then he does not know the scriptures very well, because Jesus explained this parable in detail.

Matthew 13
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Your friend says that the field is the church filled with true Christians (good seed) and false Christians (bad seed).

Jesus says that the field is the WORLD filled with believers or “sons of the kingdom” (good seed) as well “sons of the evil one” or non-believers (bad seed).

But isn’t that exactly what the person I’m talking to is arguing? He’s saying the weeds are the devil’s children, the Catholic Church and everyone else but their group.

At best, we can say your friend and his little band of brothers are like the man who buried his talent in the ground and returned it to his master with no interest for they have accomplished little to nothing for the kingdom in the past 1850 years.

The world certainly hasn’t seen much light from them, has it? :nope:

Indeed it hasn’t.

 

[TimothyH]

The Church is visible because Christ’s body was visible. That’s all there is to it.

-Tim-

 

[Randy_Carson]

But isn’t that exactly what the person I’m talking to is arguing? He’s saying the weeds are the devil’s children, the Catholic Church and everyone else but their group.

I got the impression that he was arguing that there are true Christians and false Christians IN THE CHURCH, and while I would agree, I’m simply pointing out that Jesus defined the field not as the Church but as the world, a much larger group.

Setting that aside, I would focus on the fact that his group has not been the light, the salt and the leaven that works its way through the whole batch of dough. They have achieved little for the master. Therefore, I contend that they are NOT the Church that Jesus promised to build.

He can argue all day that his true Christian friends were persecuted and all records on antiquity were lost, etc., and this will be impossible to refute since you are put into the impossible position of proving a negative - the his group was not persecuted into hiding.

Instead, ask him to show the fruit of his group’s labors. The plain fact is that they are slim pickings at best.

BTW - If he denies the Trinity, you do know you’re not dealing with a true Christian, right?

 

[CutlerB]

I got the impression that he was arguing that there are true Christians and false Christians IN THE CHURCH, and while I would agree, I’m simply pointing out that Jesus defined the field not as the Church but as the world, a much larger group.

Setting that aside, I would focus on the fact that his group has not been the light, the salt and the leaven that works its way through the whole batch of dough. They have achieved little for the master. Therefore, I contend that they are NOT the Church that Jesus promised to build.

He can argue all day that his true Christian friends were persecuted and all records on antiquity were lost, etc., and this will be impossible to refute since you are put into the impossible position of proving a negative - the his group was not persecuted into hiding.

Instead, ask him to show the fruit of his group’s labors. The plain fact is that they are slim pickings at best.

BTW - If he denies the Trinity, you do know you’re not dealing with a true Christian, right?

He’s a JW, who aren’t Christian, but claim to be.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Church is the city on the moutain top, the candle on the table. IOW, its light is exalted above all for the benefit of all. Beginning with prophecies in the OT, all the way through the NT, the Church is always visible and never hidden.

Many sects claim that there was a great apostasy right after (or even during) the apostolic age. Then reemerged much later: i.e. some Protestants, Mormons, and JW’s

Even in the time of the greatest persecutions, the Church was visible and thus could be persecuted. You never read of Imperial Rome declaring “mission accomplished,” with respect to wiping out Christianity/the Church. Nor has any power on earth succeeded even to this day.

 

[adf417]

He’s a JW, who aren’t Christian, but claim to be.

Hello CutlerB,

One can make an argument that if truly the records of their “true church” were in fact destroyed then it cannot be the Church Jesus established and therefor was bound to be destroyed, however this is probably not a good argument in itself. But how logical is it that the one true church, that Jesus established, that lost all its records, now quotes from ECF’s in order to strengthen their own weird theology and never once quotes someone other than Catholics in the early church as seen here - wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000880?q=justin+martyr&p=par in this JW version of “The Canon of the Bible”. Even if “records were lost” don’t you think the “hidden true church” would have still preserved, in their hearts, the names of the true Christians throughout time and be able to reveal them today? Don’t you think the names of the people who were responsible for this preservation and the eradication of heresies would have been important enough to remember?

Peace!!!

 

[Brandon_Cal]

But exactly that is the problem! He’ll say: “I know, there isn’t any. That just shows how bad the situation was, but since Jesus’ followers would always be here [with this he doesn’t disagree] there must have been some.”

This is the problem with people who believe in (bizarre) conspiracy theories: anything and everything, including the lack of evidence is proof positive of the conspiracy! There’s no arguing with such people; it’s an exercise in futility.

 

[CutlerB]

Update coming soon, he’s told me that his reply to my argument was coming soon.