My Catholic faith.

[pollycarp]

I recently heard a priest on the radio say it was possible to be saved in any religion.
I just heard Protestants on the local Christian TV station talking about sending bibles to Japan to try to convert them at this terrible time and I was impressed, as I thought of Christ’s command to baptize all nations.

Then I thought of some things about Catholics: Mother Teresa-“we should help hindus be better hindus”; JP II kissing the Koran; local Benedictine nuns having a program on “finding peace through the ba’hai faith”… I’m having a hard time with these things.
Thanks.

 

[PatrickSebast]

The Catholic church subscribes to the belief that having love and respect for your neighbors and their beliefs is a far more effective than aggressive evangelism. A strong believer in hinduism would not be converted by simply being preached to and being presented with apologetics anymore than you would be converted to hinduism is someone simply presented their sacred texts and beliefs to you.

Catholicism is different than protestantism in that we are more than just a simple shared belief in Christ, we are part of a singular entity that shares its culture and traditions across a multitude of nations and people. How would our faith look to outsiders if we simply disrespected the Koran, called Hindus pagans, and constantly put down Buddhism? How could our leaders claim they weren’t partially at fault when some of our members committed horrendous deeds against other faiths if they were constantly degrading them? Catholicism isn’t about conquering or force, it is about love and acceptance. The spread of the Church comes through living peacefully with our neighbors and representing our family too them in our actions and culture.

It isn’t like Muslims see the pope kissing the Koran and think: “Hey the Pope must be a Muslim too! He must believe what we believe!” the other faiths are well aware that the Pope is Catholic and that he believes in Catholic teachings, but because of his respect for them they are more likely to have a respect for him and the Church. The Dalai Lama is a great example of something similar from another faith. The man has a great deal of respect all around the world and is generally viewed in a positive light, but no one thinks that by respecting other faiths he is endorsing them.

 

[pollycarp]

The Catholic church subscribes to the belief that having love and respect for your neighbors and their beliefs is a far more effective than aggressive evangelism. A strong believer in hinduism would not be converted by simply being preached to and being presented with apologetics anymore than you would be converted to hinduism is someone simply presented their sacred texts and beliefs to you.

Catholicism is different than protestantism in that we are more than just a simple shared belief in Christ, we are part of a singular entity that shares its culture and traditions across a multitude of nations and people. How would our faith look to outsiders if we simply disrespected the Koran, called Hindus pagans, and constantly put down Buddhism? How could our leaders claim they weren’t partially at fault when some of our members committed horrendous deeds against other faiths if they were constantly degrading them? Catholicism isn’t about conquering or force, it is about love and acceptance. The spread of the Church comes through living peacefully with our neighbors and representing our family too them in our actions and culture.

It isn’t like Muslims see the pope kissing the Koran and think: “Hey the Pope must be a Muslim too! He must believe what we believe!” the other faiths are well aware that the Pope is Catholic and that he believes in Catholic teachings, but because of his respect for them they are more likely to have a respect for him and the Church. The Dalai Lama is a great example of something similar from another faith. The man has a great deal of respect all around the world and is generally viewed in a positive light, but no one thinks that by respecting other faiths he is endorsing them.

Thank you, this helps and I agree mostly. I just wish that M. Teresa might have mentioned that Jesus said He is the way…no one gets to the Father except by Him - you know, reminded them. I wonder if all hindus are “well aware” of the sisters’ faith. Seems like the protestants do make converts this way. Thanks.

 

[Aleksa]

The Catholic church subscribes to the belief that having love and respect for your neighbors and their beliefs is a far more effective than aggressive evangelism. A strong believer in hinduism would not be converted by simply being preached to and being presented with apologetics anymore than you would be converted to hinduism is someone simply presented their sacred texts and beliefs to you.

Catholicism is different than protestantism in that we are more than just a simple shared belief in Christ, we are part of a singular entity that shares its culture and traditions across a multitude of nations and people. How would our faith look to outsiders if we simply disrespected the Koran, called Hindus pagans, and constantly put down Buddhism? How could our leaders claim they weren’t partially at fault when some of our members committed horrendous deeds against other faiths if they were constantly degrading them? Catholicism isn’t about conquering or force, it is about love and acceptance. The spread of the Church comes through living peacefully with our neighbors and representing our family too them in our actions and culture.

It isn’t like Muslims see the pope kissing the Koran and think: “Hey the Pope must be a Muslim too! He must believe what we believe!” the other faiths are well aware that the Pope is Catholic and that he believes in Catholic teachings, but because of his respect for them they are more likely to have a respect for him and the Church. The Dalai Lama is a great example of something similar from another faith. The man has a great deal of respect all around the world and is generally viewed in a positive light, but no one thinks that by respecting other faiths he is endorsing them.

Amen! That was beautiful.

 

[anette01]

Hey Patrick, that was great!

 

[Eloi]

And on Mother Teresa,

you don’t have to worry about her espousing religious relativism; her wanting to make people better people is a part of their conversion. She says: “Naturally, if they want peace, if they want joy, let them find Jesus. If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there. They come closer and closer to God. When they come closer, they have to choose.”

The choice she talks about is choosing to follow Christ. It is much easier to make this choice if you are closer to God, or seeking Him more diligently.

 

[pollycarp]

Better Muslims? The ones who don’t have to love their enemies or turn the other cheek? Oh fine.

So then if the priest on the radio who said we can be saved in any faith is right, then I could become a Muslim because I have trouble with loving enemies, penance, etc. Or I can go right down the street where the happy Presbyterians are (they are preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ), and save transportation costs to my Catholic church. Thanks.

 

[GraceDK]

Better Muslims? The ones who don’t have to love their enemies or turn the other cheek? Oh fine.

So then if the priest on the radio who said we can be saved in any faith is right, then I could become a Muslim because I have trouble with loving enemies, penance, etc. Or I can go right down the street where the happy Presbyterians are (they are preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ), and save transportation costs to my Catholic church. Thanks.

Hey Pollycarp.
I agree with your first post.

I heard that Pope JP2 kissed the Quran and I was shocked. All I can say is, no one is perfect. The Pope fought against Communism and he fought for the dignity of human love and secuality. These were his strong points.
I must assume he didn’t ever read the Quran. The Quran says clearly to fight non-muslims. Its a false revelation that says Jesus is not the son of God, and its quite violent in its language, calling on a teocracy and a reinstitution of law-religion (stoning for adultery, cutting off the hand of the thief).
Kissing the Quran is like kissing the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf.
I really don’t know what JP2 was thinking but I don’t think it was an informed act. In this sense I feel more secure with Pope Benedict.

About Mother Theresa… I heard she baptised many, but again I agree with you that her statement is not really in line with the New Testament.
There is indeed only one way to heaven and that I Jesus. We are called to preach that both in words and deeds.

 

[mark_avery]

I think as life accelerates,the confusion and belief of all faiths,is put to the test,then it would be more so your situation then and the reasons and ways that got you to that point with hindsight that is,that might,i would hope,relieve the individual of recalcitrant actions.

So yes,i would accept there could be much mercy for those of different backgrounds and ways.

We all must adhere to are respective governments whether right or wrong!!

 

[Aleksa]

Hey Pollycarp.
Kissing the Quran is like kissing the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf.

I think it’s really sad that you feel this way.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…So then if the priest on the radio who said we can be saved in any faith is right…

The magi (Gk “sorcerers”) were sorcerers from the East, practitioners of a false religion. Yet, even these sorcerers were given a ray of truth to guide them to the King of kings. Were they saved by sorcerery? No. They sought and found Christ, bowing before him only because of what God revealed to them despite adhering to a false religion.

We are saved by no one but Christ. If the priest on the radio taught otherwise, he taught heresy.

The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, states:

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) … Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) (Lumen Gentium, 16)

[Footnotes:]
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72

The magi, although practicing a false religion, were moved by grace to seek God. Those who seek, shall find.

The above teaching does not mean everyone necessarily goes to heaven no matter what they believe or do, as some seem to presume. Instead, the authentic sense of this passage is better understood by referring to the texts which are footnoted…

Footnote 18 explicitly cites the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, which states,

“Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Thus, Jesus both wills and gives his grace such that all can be saved. But salvation requires consent of the will, co-operating with the grace given.

St. Thomas, in the same article of the Summa explains the various ways people are related to the Church, explaining further what is meant to be "in the Church potentially":

We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, ***some are in potentiality who will never ***be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act…Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ. (ibid.)

Consequently, we are not saved by mere ignorance. Nor are we justified by following a certain but erroneous conscience. Nor are we saved by “any kind of desire.” To be saved, the desire of joining Christ’s body, the Church, must be joined with “perfect charity” and “supernatural faith.” Footnote 19 is from the **Letter of the Holy Office, approved and promulgated by Pius XII (August 8, 1949) **(source). It states:

… that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that ***at least he be united to her by desire and longing. ***

…*** this desire need not always be explici***t, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. … the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire. … those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation… But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith…

 

[GraceDK]

I think it’s really sad that you feel this way.

Really, how so?
Even Churchhill said it, its not a new notion.
A false revelation comes from a false spirit. We don’t need our Pope to kiss a false revelation that says that those who believe that Jesus is son of God are cursed.

Do you think?

My guess is that you haven’t actually read the Quran. If you have I’ll like to go into a discussion about why its precisely fitting to compare it with other destructive books which have created sick societies and ideologies. Because thats what it does today and has done from the last 1400 years.
I remind you that Islam is not merely spiritual but demands an islamic society where, eg., Muslims are killed if they become Christians.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

First, with God all things are possible.

So God can save anyone regardless of denomination.

It isn’t the literal level where He seeks union with and among us, it’s deep in the heart, at the epicenter of passion. The literal has its purposes.

Please consider this:
Mark 9:38-41:

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.

Alan

 

[joyfulseraph]

I’ve had a hard time with this too… especially coming from a protestant background, and becoming catholic. It’s hard to understand, but I need to know more about it.

 

[joyfulseraph]

The Catholic church subscribes to the belief that having love and respect for your neighbors and their beliefs is a far more effective than aggressive evangelism. A strong believer in hinduism would not be converted by simply being preached to and being presented with apologetics anymore than you would be converted to hinduism is someone simply presented their sacred texts and beliefs to you.

Catholicism is different than protestantism in that we are more than just a simple shared belief in Christ, we are part of a singular entity that shares its culture and traditions across a multitude of nations and people. How would our faith look to outsiders if we simply disrespected the Koran, called Hindus pagans, and constantly put down Buddhism? How could our leaders claim they weren’t partially at fault when some of our members committed horrendous deeds against other faiths if they were constantly degrading them? Catholicism isn’t about conquering or force, it is about love and acceptance. The spread of the Church comes through living peacefully with our neighbors and representing our family too them in our actions and culture.

It isn’t like Muslims see the pope kissing the Koran and think: “Hey the Pope must be a Muslim too! He must believe what we believe!” the other faiths are well aware that the Pope is Catholic and that he believes in Catholic teachings, but because of his respect for them they are more likely to have a respect for him and the Church. The Dalai Lama is a great example of something similar from another faith. The man has a great deal of respect all around the world and is generally viewed in a positive light, but no one thinks that by respecting other faiths he is endorsing them.

That makes sense. I like the idea of loving and accepting everyone.

But sometimes I think with how some people put it… does this mean, for example, I don’t have to be catholic? I can be whatever I want? of course that’s not easy to answer, and then if you think you know the truth, you have to follow or it’s like you deny it?

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Really, how so?
Even Churchhill said it, its not a new notion.
A false revelation comes from a false spirit. We don’t need our Pope to kiss a false revelation that says that those who believe that Jesus is son of God are cursed.

I would have to agree with this statement. False ecumenism implies that all religions are a path to heaven. It waters down the gospel and is dangerous to souls. As for the Pope kissing the Koran, I’m going to chalk it up to a bad lapse of judgment, seeing that he is human like the rest of us.

But I agree with the OP’s concerns; the some of the statements he listed are troubling.

 

[puzzleannie]

I rec
Then I thought of some things about Catholics: Mother Teresa-“we should help hindus be better hindus”; J.

would you think better of the Catholic Church if Mother Teresa had refused to help poor hindus and muslims and insisted that all the homeless and dying in Calcutta convert before she would lift a finger for them?

 

[EnglishTeacher]

would you think better of the Catholic Church if Mother Teresa had refused to help poor hindus and muslims and insisted that all the homeless and dying in Calcutta convert before she would lift a finger for them?

No, of course not, but I think that misses the point. The quotation “helping hindus to be better hindus” (assuming that Mother Teresa actually said that) implies that she was encouraging them to continue in their religion. One can help the poor and dying without insisting on their conversion to Christianity, but also without encouraging them to remain in a false religion.

But then, I would give Mother Teresa the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know if she actually said that; or if she did, I don’t know the context in which she said it. Perhaps she didn’t mean what it sounded like she meant.

 

[GraceDK]

No, of course not, but I think that misses the point. The quotation “helping hindus to be better hindus” (assuming that Mother Teresa actually said that) implies that she was encouraging them to continue in their religion. One can help the poor and dying without insisting on their conversion to Christianity, but also without encouraging them to remain in a false religion.

But then, I would give Mother Teresa the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know if she actually said that; or if she did, I don’t know the context in which she said it. Perhaps she didn’t mean what it sounded like she meant.

Precisely

Also: false ecumenism = passivity.
In earlier times - and in most Evangelical Christianity - the Church was serious about its statement that there is only Salvation in Christ, so people were more aware of their witness-responsibility.
I am sad the Church has entered so many discussions about… “well maybe there is salvation outside of Christianity”.

Like with the condom-debate, we should know that God does work in lawless-land (where ever there are people, God is there ) but we should not seek to legislate in it or negotiate with it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Like with the condom-debate, we should know that God does work in lawless-land (where ever there are people, God is there ) but we should not seek to legislate in it or negotiate with it.

I fully agree! I think the church would do well to focus on feeding real spiritual food to her sheep a little more, and rile them up into political action a little less.

Alan