My Change of Heart

[SacredHeartFan]

Many of you are going to start thinking I’m bi-polar. Well I’m not. First I was a supporter of the OF and then I became a tradditionalist and now heres my motto:

What the Pope and the Church says is good for me.

My uncle made a very good point about this.
( I do still think that Priest should have to wear the cassock )

 

[NeedImprovement]

…Just my limited opinion and I haven’t read all your posts but it doesn’t seem you ever stopped being Catholic; simply that your faith has taken on different perspectives.

As for spiritual bipolarity…I think it’s in every one of us and that’s why we need the sacrament of Confession…to keep the “moral compass” working properly.

 

[consumedconvert]

Many of you are going to start thinking I’m bi-polar. Well I’m not. First I was a supporter of the OF and then I became a tradditionalist and now heres my motto:

What the Pope and the Church says is good for me.

My uncle made a very good point about this.
( I do still think that Priest should have to wear the cassock )

Heckuva motto!

 

[saint_rafael]

I would diagree with that position.
It leads to a false obedience. What about when the Pope and Church is wrong?

We must say that we obey Christ first and also the infallible Magisterium of the Church. To many times, the clergy have contradicted the Magisterium.

The Church and many Churchmen are infected with Modernism. We live in times of apostasy, just like the Arian heresy.

Would you have obeyed Pope Liberius when he said that Jesus only had human nature and was a man? Many of the bishops of that time were Arian.
We had courageous men during that time as we do now who are willing to stand for truth, tradition, and the Magisterium.

 

[consumedconvert]

I would diagree with that position.
It leads to a false obedience. **What about when the Pope and Church is wrong? **

We must say that we obey Christ first and also the infallible Magisterium of the Church. To many times, the clergy have contradicted the Magisterium.

The Church and many Churchmen are infected with Modernism. We live in times of apostasy, just like the Arian heresy.

Would you have obeyed Pope Liberius when he said that Jesus only had human nature and was a man? Many of the bishops of that time were Arian.
We had courageous men during that time as we do now who are willing to stand for truth, tradition, and the Magisterium.

The Church cannot err. That’s Catholicism 101.

The Pope is of course infallible in matters of morals and doctrine. To say that you’d trust the Magisterium over the Pope is kind of like saying you’d trust the Magisterium over the Magisterium. Not exactly, but kind of.

You may respectfully question and disagree with his political positions and scientific opinions.

With all due respect, you seem to share an underlying doctrine with Hans Kung: the Pope is not infallible. He errs to the left, and you err to the right; but you both err.

 

[ethelzguy]

What the Pope and the Church says is good for me.

It’s worked for me for 70 years

 

[consumedconvert]

BTW, I also like it when Father wears a Cassock!

Why aren’t the rest of us sharp enough to dress like that?

 

[saint_rafael]

No.
Hans Kung believes there is no Papal Infallibility. I believe what Vatican I teaches about Papal infallibility.

The Pope is only infallible when he speaks on faith and morals Ex-Cathedra. The Pope has spoken from the chair or made an Ex-Cathedra statement only twice.

The Church cannot err in its infallible teachings, but individual Popes and bishops can err. When a Pope contradicts the Magisterium, that teaching is automatically invalid. Usually there are good Popes and their teachings are the same, but sometimes we have bad Popes who teach error.

That is why Popes can fall into heresy. Pope Honorius was declared a heretic by a Church council and by two Popes.

 

[saint_rafael]

The Pope is of course infallible in matters of morals and doctrine.

With all due respect, you seem to share an underlying doctrine with Hans Kung: the Pope is not infallible. He errs to the left, and you err to the right; but you both err.

Here the infallible teaching of Papal infallibility from the 4th session of Vatican I, Chapter 4:

Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.
**
A Pope can err in faith and morals. He is infallible in faith and morals only when he speaks Ex-Cathedra.**

 

[piouswoman]

I would diagree with that position.
It leads to a false obedience. What about when the Pope and Church is wrong?

We must say that we obey Christ first and also the infallible Magisterium of the Church. To many times, the clergy have contradicted the Magisterium.

The Church and many Churchmen are infected with Modernism. We live in times of apostasy, just like the Arian heresy.

Would you have obeyed Pope Liberius when he said that Jesus only had human nature and was a man? Many of the bishops of that time were Arian.
We had courageous men during that time as we do now who are willing to stand for truth, tradition, and the Magisterium.

I agree with you. Most Catholics do not properly understand the meaning of obedience/false obedience. The OP has a typical and naive understanding. Catholics obedience is always obedience within TRADITION.

TRUE OBEDIENCE
Lawful superiors are to be respected as the representatives of Christ
BUT
if they depart gravely from the Catholic Faith, I may even rebuke them in public - Galatians 2:11-14

TRUE OBEDIENCE
According to the great theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, true obedience is a balance between twin errors of defect and excess, which are disobedience and false obedience (IIaIIae, Q104,5 ad 3). Today this second error is common among Catholics who, when they follow orders to depart from Tradition, think they are being obedient.

stas.org/apologetics/crisis/Vatican_II/obedience.shtml

 

[ProVobis]

A Pope can err in faith and morals. He is infallible in faith and morals only when he speaks Ex-Cathedra.

That’s a very important point. And the Arian heresy, a good example of error, was not spoken Ex-Cathedra.

 

[ProVobis]

With all due respect, you seem to share an underlying doctrine with Hans Kung: the Pope is not infallible. He errs to the left, and you err to the right; but you both err.

Since you take this rather strange position, would you agree with those who “think” some papal decrees are more infallible than others, based on their preference at the time?

 

[consumedconvert]

Since you take this rather strange position, would you agree with those who “think” some papal decrees are more infallible than others, based on their preference at the time?

A proclamation is of course very different from a private letter or private conversation, or even unoficial teaching. An official proclamation on matters of faith or morals from the Pope cannot be in error. The Holy Spirit protects his Church in this way.

I agree that clergy can err in matters of faith and morals.

Perhaps I misinterpreted the intend of the post in question.

 

[consumedconvert]

I agree with you. Most Catholics do not properly understand the meaning of obedience/false obedience. The OP has a typical and naive understanding. Catholics obedience is always obedience within TRADITION.

TRUE OBEDIENCE
Lawful superiors are to be respected as the representatives of Christ
BUT
if they depart gravely from the Catholic Faith, I may even rebuke them in public - Galatians 2:11-14

TRUE OBEDIENCE
According to the great theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, true obedience is a balance between twin errors of defect and excess, which are disobedience and false obedience (IIaIIae, Q104,5 ad 3). Today this second error is common among Catholics who, when they follow orders to depart from Tradition, think they are being obedient.

stas.org/apologetics/crisis/Vatican_II/obedience.shtml

Oh dear.

Who interprets Tradition for you? You do it yourself?

 

[piouswoman]

Oh dear.

Who interprets Tradition for you? You do it yourself?

That’s right…just disregard and make light of whatever it is you do not want to hear, even when it is truth. I would never be so bold as to form an opinion contrary to one of the greatest Doctors of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas. Shall we discuss just who is in schism?

 

[PrayforMallory]

That’s right…just disregard and make light of whatever it is you do not want to hear, even when it is truth. I would never be so bold as to form an opinion contrary to one of the greatest Doctors of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas. Shall we discuss just who is in schism?

I always enjoy reading your posts. They seem well-researched and supported.

This deification of the papacy we see nowadays. I don’t understand it. I was always taught that the Holy Father was only infallible when he spoke ex cathedra or exercised the ordinary magisterium, etc. I’m no expert though.

At the same time, this deification of the papacy and churchmen seems to be eroding. People aren’t treating the proclamations of Benedict XVI and Card. Hoyos the same way as the statements and actions of John Paul II. Kind of boggles the mind.

To the OP, I know where you are coming from. However, I just don’t think shutting off your rational mind will be beneficial to the Church, yourself, etc. If we all did this, Catholicism would quickly degenerate to the level of evangelicals, etc.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Many of you are going to start thinking I’m bi-polar. Well I’m not. First I was a supporter of the OF and then I became a tradditionalist and now heres my motto:

What the Pope and the Church says is good for me.

My uncle made a very good point about this.
( I do still think that Priest should have to wear the cassock )

I am going to attempt to turn this thread back to what you posted SHF.

In point of fact, I did do a swift doubletake. One weekend you told me that stripper music was OK for Mass as long as the lyrics were appropriate and then the next weekend it was entirely different.

For all that some disagree with me when it comes to liturgical music and reverence, I don’t see any need for you to have to choose between the OF and the EF. I understand where you might be coming from having lived in a parish close to you. I repeat the suggestion I have previously made to you…go downtown to Mass at the Cathedral - there you will experience a reverent OF. There are other reverent OF parishes nearby as well (pm me and I’ll let you know which ones).

I grew up with the TLM and was in high school when everything changed. You grew up with the OF and now want to chuck everything and attempt to go back to the church that I knew 45 years ago. That strikes me as being on the rash side.

Give yourself time. Devote yourself to prayer and ask for the Holy Spirit’s guidance.