My Church teaches that God is Love, and love will save the World.It seems not realist

[Athanasiy]

I am from the Baptist community.
We believe that we should pray for the government like the Scripture says, but not to be involved in any civil and political activity.
I grew up with a stories of how cruel were Middle Ages and Crusades, and finally God revealed to the Christians that He Is Love, and only by forgiving love he saves the souls.

In our country we have obligation to go to the Army.
I was in the Alternative Service( its permitted for the Confessions and Denominations who are the Pacifists ) not military one , but inside I have the doubts about Pacifism. John the Baptist did not tell to the Military to leave the duty, Jesus also used Righteous Anger when he broke the staff of sellers in the Gods Temple. In the Scripture the Prophets of the Old Testament are calling for the Salvation of Society.

Are there any definite verses in the Bible that prove that I have the right in some cases to use the arm power ?
Do I have a right to protest against the corruption and oppression of the government ? When in this case can I use the violence ?
Is it a sin , to fight for my country against the enemy country who has the same religion as me , and claims for our territory who belonged to that country before ?

I like the words of Dostoevskiy that Beauty will save the world
and I want to believe in our Baptists main words on the middle of the wall in my church that God is Love, but it seems to me that our Conception is not realistic and even kind of parasitic .
May be this teaching is just a carefully hidden fatalism ?

 

[Contarini]

I am from the Baptist community.
We believe that we should pray for the government like the Scripture says, but not to be involved in any civil and political activity.

Interesting. I presume from your name that you live in an Orthodox, probably Slavic country, most likely former Communist? Are all Baptists in your country pacifists, or only the unregistered ones?

I grew up with a stories of how cruel were Middle Ages and Crusades, and finally God revealed to the Christians that He Is Love, and only by forgiving love he saves the souls.

Well, that’s a caricature of Christian history to be sure, but I think there’s some truth to this view. Generally speaking I think the Catholic Church today would agree, although you have a bunch of conservative American Catholics on this board who think differently.

In our country we have obligation to go to the Army.
I was in the Alternative Service( its permitted for the Confessions and Denominations who are the Pacifists ) not military one , but inside I have the doubts about Pacifism. John the Baptist did not tell to the Military to leave the duty, Jesus also used Righteous Anger when he broke the staff of sellers in the Gods Temple. In the Scripture the Prophets of the Old Testament are calling for the Salvation of Society.

I have mixed feelings about pacifism myself. I don’t think we can say categorically that serving in the military is wrong. But there have always been Christian communities that renounced all forms of violence (monks, for instance), and I see pacifist Protestant churches (such as your branch of the Baptists or in the U.S. the Mennonites and some other groups–unfortunately our Baptists are generally not pacifists!) as a continuation of that. I think this is the higher path and does not indicate an abandonment of the world. Quite the contrary, such a witness has a powerful effect on the world.

Jesus’ actions did not kill anyone, of course. I take your point about the OT Prophets, but remember that the people of Israel were God’s chosen people. No Gentile nation can claim this, although both Americans and Russians have a strong (and IMHO very destructive in both cases) historical disposition toward making such a claim.

Are there any definite verses in the Bible that prove that I have the right in some cases to use the arm power ?

The government has that right by natural law–the classic NT text is Romans 13. That does not entirely solve the question of how and whether Christians can participate. In my opinion a purely defensive war would be legitimate, but such things are rare. It’s not that it’s wrong in principle, but that a government that acted according to Christian principles would never use force except as a last result, and if the government is not acting according to Christian principles (which few governments do, even governments made up mostly of Christians–the current U.S. government, for instance), then Christians should not be part of such action.

 

[Contarini]

Do I have a right to protest against the corruption and oppression of the government ?

I would say certainly.

When in this case can I use the violence ?

As an absolute last resort, if your government is completely tyrannical and is killing innocent people, and you have a reasonable chance of installing a better government without hurting innocent people. That’s my opinion anyway. Almost always, non-violent witness is the way to go.

Is it a sin , to fight for my country against the enemy country who has the same religion as me , and claims for our territory who belonged to that country before ?

I think that a strong case could be made that Christians should not kill Christians, period. I don’t know exactly which Eastern European boundary dispute you’re talking about–since you seem to see military conflict as imminent it sounds like you might be in the former Yugoslavia? I have spent a lot of time in Romania, so I’m somewhat familiar with the Hungarian claims to Transylvania and the Romanian claims to Moldova. In both cases it seems to me that there is not a clear-cut right and wrong, though I favor the Romanian claim to Transylvania and the Moldovan right of self-determination however that goes (but then there are those Russian rebels in Moldova–I don’t know how that conflict ended or even if it has ended. . . . ). I would say that if your country is under attack from enemy troops then you can legitimately participate in defending it. But remember that governments love to claim self-defense to cover up their ambitions. That’s why I think your church is probably taking the better course.

I like the words of Dostoevskiy that Beauty will save the world
and I want to believe in our Baptists main words on the middle of the wall in my church that God is Love, but it seems to me that our Conception is not realistic and even kind of parasitic .

It can be part of a parasitic attitude, sure. But it doesn’ t have to be. I think that your love of Dostoyevsky points you in the right direction–he certainly did not have a “parasitic” attitude or disclaim loyalty to Russia (in fact he was a mouthpiece of Russian messianism!), but he expressed it through spiritual means.

Is this unrealistic? Sure. We aren’t called to be realists–that is one of the biggest fallacies into which Christians fall. Jesus’ way of redeeming the world was not realistic. We are called to walk in the way of the Cross, and that means that we do not measure our actions by whether they are likely to succeed but whether they are faithful to Jesus.

May be this teaching is just a carefully hidden fatalism ?

In some forms, maybe. American dispensationalism is fatalistic in many ways. But I don’t think nonviolence is intrinsically fatalist. Quite the contrary–nonviolence is the ultimate expression of hope. Not optimism, but hope in the power of Jesus’ Cross and Resurrection. Violence is an expression of fatalism–it says, “all else has failed, and we have no choice.” (Obviously anyone who uses violence otherwise than as a last resort is evil, period.)

You’re grappling with deep issues. Keep it up, brother!

In Christ,

Edwin

 

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The Just War Theory