My disagreement with the Church

[MrZetterlund]

I’ve been reading a book called, “This is the Faith” -which is an apologetics guide for non-Catholics to understand the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, as I explore the doctrines of the Catholic church, I become less convinced of it being the “true Church of Jesus Christ.” Take for example purgatory, it directly contradicts Scripture:

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.”
-Revelation 3:15-17

The author tries to give Scriptual evidence to back up the doctrine of Purgatory, which he does explicitly in the book of Machabees which isn’t in the protestant Bible for being apart of the Apocrypha. Also, I really do not think it’s true that you can pay sums of money for those in purgatory.
He tries to give evidence that Jesus referred to purgatory, and that really would have plemished it. But he reffered to Matthew 12:32 when Jesus says, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come” Suggesting that this “age to come” is refering to purgatory.
Of course, this is stating that there will be some who do not witness the miricals of Christ and may speak against Him, but those who witness the power of the Holy Spirit and who’s hearts are hard will not be forgiven. It has nothing to do with purgatory.

Now I know that Catholics believe that Peter was called Petros meaning “Little Rock” and that he is “the rock in which Christ will found His Church” But rather, I believe Jesus was reffering to Peter’s statement “You are the Christ, Son of the living God” which He is building the foundation. Which unites all denominations. But Jesus was using a play-on-words and was making an Old to New Testament transition. Christ is known to have been “the Rock that gushed out water, or living water” that Moses struck in the desert.

But I do still admire the Catholic faith, God Bless.

 

[puzzleannie]

you are not reading the book of that title by Michael Pennock, because he does not state what you report about purgatory and indulgences. What book are you using? who is the author? quite right about there being missing books in the Protestant bible, they were removed, on human authority, after the Reformation.

 

[grace_singh]

MrZetterlund ~

the Catholic Church is certainly Apostolic… and her traditions and beliefs have their origins, many of them at least, in the earliest days of Christian faith.

as i understand it, there were many Christian communities around the world in the first couple centuries of Christian history- in Egypt, Jerusalem, Turkey, the Middle East, Greece, Italy, India, and other countries. these communities developed unique liturgies, prayers, hymns, traditions, and cultures, but for the most part there was an understanding of the basics of Christian faith, Christology, and the sacrements.

the first major break-off was with Nestorius, and his followers migrated (were basically chased to) to Persia where they came into contact with and were welcomed by the indigenous, Apostolic Persian Church. which in turn adopted many of Nestorius’ heretical beliefs and ideas on top of their older traditions and creeds, and became what we now know as the Assyrian Church of the East.

in response to Nestorius, there arose a conflict between what we now call the Oriental Orthodox churches, and what was at that time those churches who would later become Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic over Christology. basically, there was a battle over semantics- was Christ one Person with two united natures (human and divine) [Hypostatic Union], or one Person being of the two united (human and divine) natures in a single person [Miaphysitic]?

the former is beleived by Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. the latter is believed by the Oriental Orthodox Churches. many today agree that these two understandings are basically saying the same thing, in different ways.

the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches still had and developed different cultures, schools of theology, approaches to theology, liturgies, beliefs regarding the Papacy (Bishopry of Rome), and practices, even before they “formally” split in 1054.

at least, this is Christian history as i have understood and read.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

It looks like you got your hands on a book that gave you some funny (and false) ideas about purgatory and the like.

I highly suggest you check out Why Do Catholics Do That. It is a very easy to read, and accurate description of the Catholic faith.

 

[JRKH]

I’ve been reading a book called, “This is the Faith” -which is an apologetics guide for non-Catholics to understand the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, as I explore the doctrines of the Catholic church, I become less convinced of it being the “true Church of Jesus Christ.” Take for example purgatory, it directly contradicts Scripture:

I cannot answer all of your concersn but will stab at a couple.
When you say that Purgatory directly contradicts Scripture, you are already saying that scriptural evidence presented to you supporting the idea of purgatory will be “suspect” at best and at worst dismissed out of hand by you.
Please try ot keep a more open mind.

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.”
-Revelation 3:15-17

Being lukewarm here does not refer to those who are sincerely trying to follow Christ but have not reached perfection in Love. This verse IMHO refers to those who are “nominal christians”. Who claim to be Chrisitan but do not even try to follow the tenets of the faith.

The author tries to give Scriptual evidence to back up the doctrine of Purgatory, which he does explicitly in the book of Machabees which isn’t in the protestant Bible for being apart of the Apocrypha.

Here is a perfect example of the problem I alluded to in your opening statment. Is Maccabees missing from your bible because it was added to or subtracted from the bible that was used between 400 AD and 1500 AD. In truth you are missing it because it was taken out of your bible. So the Author’s scriptural reference to Maccabees is perfectly acceptable - If you are open to what is truly Historical Scripture.

Also, I really do not think it’s true that you can pay sums of money for those in purgatory.

I do not know that such indulgences are still practiced. If it is then the matter would be less about the money than it would be about the pious sacrifice made by the one offering the money. However, today most, if not all, indulgences involve prayer and not money.

He tries to give evidence that Jesus referred to purgatory, and that really would have plemished it. But he reffered to Matthew 12:32 when Jesus says, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come” Suggesting that this “age to come” is refering to purgatory.
Of course, this is stating that there will be some who do not witness the miricals of Christ and may speak against Him, but those who witness the power of the Holy Spirit and who’s hearts are hard will not be forgiven. It has nothing to do with purgatory.

St Paul also references a purgation “as if by fire” that will test mans works.
I Corinthians 3:10-15 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15** If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

Now I know that Catholics believe that Peter was called Petros meaning “Little Rock” and that he is “the rock in which Christ will found His Church”

You are mistaken. Catholics believe that Peter was renamed Kepha (Rock), not little rock. Jesus Spoke Aramaic, not Greek. Peter is even refered to as Cephas (Rock) in the NT.

But rather, I believe Jesus was reffering to Peter’s statement “You are the Christ, Son of the living God” which He is building the foundation. Which unites all denominations. But Jesus was using a play-on-words and was making an Old to New Testament transition. Christ is known to have been “the Rock that gushed out water, or living water” that Moses struck in the desert.

Well this has been discussed ad nauseum on these boards. The Early Church did not agree with you that it was a “play on words”.

But I do still admire the Catholic faith, God Bless.

Hope to formally welcome you home someday soon.

Peace
James

 

[Joe_5859]

you are not reading the book of that title by Michael Pennock, because he does not state what you report about purgatory and indulgences. What book are you using? who is the author? quite right about there being missing books in the Protestant bible, they were removed, on human authority, after the Reformation.

He’s probably reading Faith"the by Canon Francis Ripley. The Pennock book is “This is Our Faith.”

For the record, indulgences are not sold. That was an abuse that was done away with a long time ago.

 

[MrZetterlund]

It looks like you got your hands on a book that gave you some funny (and false) ideas about purgatory and the like.

I highly suggest you check out Why Do Catholics Do That. It is a very easy to read, and accurate description of the Catholic faith.

It’s “This is the Faith: A Complete Explanation of the Catholic Faith” by Canon Francis Ripley

 

[Mark77]

Mr. Zetterlund,

i commend you on your search for the Truth!

#1 Purgatory: Here’s a great Scriptural teaching on Purgatory! scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says;

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1).

CA has a 2 excellent Faith Tracts found here; catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp & here; catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

**The Catholic Church has NEVER TAUGHT THAT MONETARY PURCHASE OF INDULGENCES IS VALID!
**

#2 PETER; You wrote; "Now I know that Catholics believe that Peter was called Petros meaning “Little Rock” You are 100% wrong!

First Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek! In Aramaic there is no word for “little rock or big rock”, there is only ROCK!

Read this; scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html. & this; catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

**Jesus loves you & He can’t wait until you are Catholic! **

"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ " (LK 15:6)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark