My first bad experience

[jmcrae]

One of the reasons I’ve suspected the Catholic Church of teaching that our good works cause salvation is because, as I understand it, Catholic teaching states that one is not finally and fully justified (my paraphrase, forgive me if I have it wrong) until the day of judgment, when God will either pronounce the person just or will condemn the person to hell (or sentence him to purgatory) based on how much/how well he has cooperated with infused grace. If I have it right, this seems to teach that the final deciding factor in anyone’s salvation is their works, their cooperation.

Everyone is capable of committing sin right up until the last moment of life. In fact, Nero made a sport of trying to get Christians to curse God before killing them in the arena, so as to send them to Hell. (He would promise people that he would set them free if only they would curse God - some did, and he killed them anyway.)

Those who stood firm to the end became Saints in Heaven - those who did not - did not. There is only one alternative to becoming a Saint in Heaven, and it isn’t very nice.

It’s not a “work” to remain in Christ to the very end of one’s life. But one can certainly “work” (sin) one’s way out of Heaven, and into Hell. There is no such thing as “once saved, always saved” - you won’t find it anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

[tarboy]

Calvanists wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t scripture that implies OSAS.

A Calvanist would also argue that the Christians who persevered to the end, were the only ones that were really saved to begin with

Personally, I find the concept of predestination very unmotivating.

It’s not a “work” to remain in Christ to the very end of one’s life. But one can certainly “work” (sin) one’s way out of Heaven, and into Hell. There is no such thing as “once saved, always saved” - you won’t find it anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

[Koineman]

Calvanists wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t scripture that implies OSAS.

OSAS is not Calvinist. Perseverance of the Saints is.

A Calvanist would also argue that the Christians who persevered to the end, were the only ones that were really saved to begin with

Exactly.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

We’re not the ones claiming that everything is made explicitly plain in the Bible; we acknowledge the role of Holy Tradition.

But you are the ones claiming that a doctrine is not true because a word you’ve chosen to describe it not found in the Bible. We acknowledge tradition, too. We just believe tradition is subject to God’s Word, not on an equal level with it.

rainaldo:

This can be a three-handed game, too.

Where is murder in the Constitution?

See, it’s the same idea.

No, it’s really not, because the Bible and the Constitution serve two different purposes and address different things.

koineman:

OSAS is not Calvinist. Perseverance of the Saints is.

Actually, both eternal security and perseverence of the saints are key doctrines in Reformed theology. The reason Catholics may not realize this is that even though we use the same words, we do not apply the same meaning to them.

 

[Koineman]

Actually, both eternal security and perseverence of the saints are key doctrines in Reformed theology. The reason Catholics may not realize this is that even though we use the same words, we do not apply the same meaning to them.

OSAS often carries the connotation (at least for some) that you can sin to your heart’s content after you’re saved and it won’t matter. It’s the way it’s worded, I believe, that makes it repugnant to so many people. It’s a similar wording as the statement, “Once a marine, always a marine.” The idea is something stays true regardless of what one does. The Reformed formulation of the doctrine, however, is much clearer and does not allow for that misunderstanding because it uses the word “perseverance,” showing that those who are saved will persevere and will not continue in sin. That one word “perseverance” makes all the difference.

 

[Koineman]

On the subject of Calvinism, here’s a pic I thought was humorous: paulwilkinson.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/arminian-bureau-of-investigation.jpg.

 

[Rainaldo]

No, it’s really not, because the Bible and the Constitution serve two different purposes and address different things.

Chuck, if the words “Purgatory”, “veneration”, “pope”, “infused righteousness” and “Magisterium” are not in the Bible therefore they are false doctrines, then by the same token if the word “murder” isn’t in the Constitution therefore it isn’t a law. That’s how to refute him.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

OSAS often carries the connotation (at least for some) that you can sin to your heart’s content after you’re saved and it won’t matter.

Not when properly understood. The problem is that there are people who have a desire to purposely misrepresent it as such. You can explain it to them all day long, cite ECF, quote scripture, etc, and they just don’t care. Because their religion teaches that Christ is incompetent to keep that which the Father has given Him and that He is unable to keep us from falling, they have to insist that the Biblical doctrine of eternal security is false.

rainaldo:

Chuck, if the words “Purgatory”, “veneration”, “pope”, “infused righteousness” and “Magisterium” are not in the Bible therefore they are false doctrines, then by the same token if the word “murder” isn’t in the Constitution therefore it isn’t a law. That’s how to refute him.

Again, the difference is that the Constitution and the Bible serve two different purposes.

The Bible tells us what its purpose is in 2 Tim, when it says that God gave us the scriptures for the purpose of “teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

The purpose of the Constitution, on the other hand, is not to codify or define criminal offenses, but to explain the rights retained by the people, the limits placed on government, and to explain the role and responsibilities of the three branches of Congress.

Crimes, such as murder, are typically prosecuted at the state level, not the federal level so to say “if murder isn’t in the Constitution, it isn’t true” is a logical fallacy because that isn’t the purpose of the Constitution. Its also fallacious because not being a federal crime does not preclude it from being a crime at the state level. And I’m sure I don’t have to explain to you why “…but it’s not in the Constitution!” would not be a good legal defense for murder.

Now, if you had said, “If murder isn’t found in the U.S. Legal Code, it isn’t a crime”, you might have had a valid point. But, as we all know, murder is defined and codified as a crime in U.S. Legal Code (18 USC Sec. 3236 )

But that’s neither here nor there. Now that that’s settled, could we please get back to the topic?

 

[Koineman]

Not when properly understood.

And that is why I prefer the term “perseverance of the saints.” It won’t convince someone whose mind is made up, as you implied, but clarity of terms can help avoid confusion. No point in making the confusion any worse than it already is.

 

[PJM]

=ErricFiggy;9275164]I was talking to a a friend regarding his belief in salvation by faith alone, and it was very tiring and draining spiritually. He just kept bombarding me with Scripture I knew how to handle it, but it was just overwhelming. I tried redirecting the conversation and focusing on one thing at a time, but it seemed as if though his mind was already made up. I even told him he was welcome to come home to the Catholic Church and he told me he took that very offensive, and that hewasat home with Jesus Christ. We finished our discussion, and he wants to talk about purgatory next…should i continue? Or is he just looking to “enlighten” me instead of actually listening?

PRAY ABOUT it:thumbsup:

The One INFALLIBLE RULE for understanding the Bibles is:

NEVER EVER CAN ON PASSAGE OVERIDE, NEGATE, OR MAKE VOID ANOTHER PASSAGE OR TEACHING.

IF HE IS UNWILLING TO ACCEPT THIS SIMPLE AND LOGICAL REALITY AND TRUTH; IGNORE AND PRAY FOR HIM.

God Bless and keep close to God.

We teach
we share
ONLY GOD CONVERTS!

pat/PJM