My new favorite pro-life argument

[Hitetlen]

LilyM:

You didn’t read my argument properly - regardless of whether it’s potential life or realized life, it has inherent value even from a rational human standpoint, not just a religious one. The embryonic and fetal stages are a necessary and inevitable part of the development of a human being, and I’m sure that there are a fair number of atheists who happily accept that they have inherent value. You may not believe it, but it is hardly invalid or stupid to believe in the inherent value of human life.

I did read your argument and understood it. Your assertion was that the “potential” and the “realized” should be treated equally, and asked for a reason not to treat them equally. I answered that: because potential and realized are NOT equal.

To give you another example: I am a potential retiree, but not a realized one. Therefore I cannot ask for a pension, because I am not retired YET. Just because I may become retired in the future, that does not give me permission or right to demand a pension today. I hope you see the difference between “potential” and “actual” now.

LilyM:

People choose one set of beliefs over another, and in a democratic society this means some people get imposed on. Murderers clearly believe that life never has inherent value and that they are justified in taking it away - in a democratic society where a large number, if not a majority, of people believe this is wrong, for better or worse murderers are inconvenienced by this belief.

Apart from the word “democratic” I agree. The US is NOT a democracy, it is a constitutional republic.

LilyM:

So you think it’s fine for people of any age and in any circumstances to smoke, drink, take drugs, and have sex?

Yes, as long as they are adults and responsible for themselves. Children, who live at home are subject to demands of their parents, but as soon as they move out, and able to sustain themselves, it becomes their business.

LilyM:

Does that include rape and incest? Where do you draw the line?

Another red herring. Rape and incest are never consensual, so they does not belong to the same category.

LilyM:

Don’t criticise us for defining life as beginning nine months earlier than you do or as including more inherent obligations than you do - in reality your critieria are just as arbitrary as anybody else’s.

“Life” as you say began about 3 billion years ago.

LilyM:

As I said in my opening paragraph, living in a society means accepting some restrictions and impositions. Sometimes they will run contrary to your personal beliefs, sometimes they will reflect your beliefs and impose on others instead. Grow up and accept that the world doesn’t dance to your tune.

Considering that my kid is the same age as you are, I am done with my growing up process. I accept that living is a society imposes on my absolute freedom, but I do not accept that my freedom should be curtailed when exercising it does not harm anyone else.

 

[ChiFaithful]

Sidebar, and since it’s my thread, I guess I have the right to an interlude now and then.

I think it’s interesting that this thread dropped down several pages here and reawoke in the last couple of days. Must be something brewing there in South Dakota and at the Supreme Court these days… hmm…

 

[vz71]

True enough, it is in the news already.

But in response to everything I have read thus far…

There comes a time when you just need to sit back and acknowledge that the other side of the argument is blind.
They simply will not see the truths before them, no matter how well placed or logical. It is not that they cannot see, but that they refuse to.

And in response the only real option is to pray, and take comfort in the knowledge that their ‘belief’ does not dictate the reality.

The unborn is human. This is irrefutable. The DNA says so.
The unborn is also its own person. This too is irrefutable. The DNA shows that the unborn is neither mother or father.
The unborn is alive. Again irrefutable.

There are no other arguments to be considered. Any others are simply trying to make an excuse or exception when there is simply none to be had.

When someone attempts to argue for abortion, they must argue that it is correct and proper to destroy a human life.
That also is irrefutable fact. And that is why the pro-abortion side will always be wrong.

At this point, the pro-abortion side is trying to split hairs to get around the facts. But the facts are there, and will prove out.

I pray the day comes soon.

Slightly more then .02 deposited.

Z

 

[LilyM]

Hitetlen:

Your assertion was that the “potential” and the “realized” should be treated equally, and asked for a reason not to treat them equally. I answered that: because potential and realized are NOT equal.

‘Potential’ human life and ‘realised’ human life are not the same thing, neither are adults and children, but they both value and need protection. If you agree that a fetus/embryo is a potential human life then it is not crazy to think that it is potentially murder if you eliminate it.

Hitetlen:

Just because I may become retired in the future, that does not give me permission or right to demand a pension today.

Actually, here in Australia when we work our employers are required by law to put aside a certain amount of money into superannuation for us. That’s at least sort of a protection of our future rights when we retire, even though we may never do so. So too children have a right to education here and now even though the vast majority of its benefits are only actualised after it’s completed. In any event these rights don’t compare in importance to the right to life itself. which is surely the most fundamental right of all and worthy of utmost protection.

It’s hardly crazy to seek an extension of the right to life to protect potential life as well. After all, where DO you draw the line? At birth? At the point where a baby can survive outside the womb? (which by the way is getting younger and younger thanks to improved medical care and technology). At the point where the fetus/embryo has its own heartbeat and/or brain function? Frequently this occurs before the point at which the mother even knows she is pregnant!

Hitetlen:

The US is NOT a democracy, it is a constitutional republic.

Nice distinction. Doesn’t change the fact that an awful lot of people in the US disapprove of abortion, just as they disapprove of murder and all other crimes. And there are all sorts of religious and non-religious reasons for this.

Hitetlen:

as soon as they move out, and able to sustain themselves, it becomes their business.

Sorry, no it is NOT their business alone. Such behaviours are illegal because they at least indirectly have harmful effects on all of society, by rendering people unproductive or inoperative as members of society. In addition, in a lot of people’s opinion humans are also inherently valuable. I’m sorry if you don’t share this opinion, at least acknowledge it.

Hitetlen:

Rape and incest are never consensual

I was thinking of statutory rape(?) where sex with an underage person is illegal regardless of whether they consented to it. People can indeed have consensual sex with close relatives, which is incest.

Hitetlen:

I am done with my growing up process. I do not accept that my freedom should be curtailed when exercising it does not harm anyone else.

I don’t know that anyone is really grown up who would so blithely consign a potential human life to the dustbin in the name of your own freedom. Freedom doesn’t automatically give you the right to put your own needs and desires ahead of those of a potential child which didn’t ask to be conceived, but which your own risky behaviour created. That potential human, in my opinion, should have the freedom to live and grow up and make a useful contribution to our society.

And you assert that abortion doesn’t harm anyone else. Abortion often seriously harms the woman who aborts, physically and psychologically. It also harms ALL of us, most importantly by eliminating future productive citizens of our countries. We’re really all shooting ourselves in the foot by making abortion so readily available.

I’m not saying that there aren’t grey areas in regard to abortion - for example grave risk to the physical or mental health of the parents or grave physical problems with the fetus/embryo. Other than that, we need to look at real solutions to the problems that prevent people being able to have and raise children and not just consign them to the dustbin.

Well, I’ve had far more than my two cents worth, and you’ll either listen or not. Judging by some of your other threads I’d bet on the latter. All the best anyways.