My thoughts so far on the Catholic Church

[Telstar]

So Telestar are you saying if I don’t pray to Mary that Jesus will not listen nor hear me?

Certainly not. I’m not even saying that we have to pray to Mary for anything, at all. But, when you consider how Jesus feels about her, you have to admit that it makes sense. If I want a favor from Him and can’t seem to get an answer, I don’t hesitate going to His Mom, to have her ask Him for me. He changed water into wine for her, even after He said it wasn’t His time, yet. He just can’t resist doing favors for His Mom. Did you ever have a friend that you wanted to do a favor for you, but you were nervous about asking them, so you asked their Mom to ask for you? I have. Some people just can’t refuse to do anything their Mom asks them to do.

(BTW… there’s only one ‘e’ in Telstar. )

 

[PJM]

=batman1973;9061694]I still think this Mary thing is way out of line for me. With what I know of Sacred Scripture, it’s not biblical. And, no one, save PJM in an email addressed hell. (Telstar touched it briefly) These are serious issues. I’m beginning to think that maybe becoming LCMS ain’t such a bad idea.

***MY DEAR FRIEND IN CHRIST,

***Logic alone ought to assure any reasonable and thinking person that the FACT [historically proveable] that today’s CC is the ONLY One Church founded by God Himself; NOT some mortal man; and holding onto the ONLY set of Faith beliefs taught by God Himself and warrated by that same God.

It is illogical, even incomprehensible that Bible truths did not exist before Luthers Protestant Revolution:shrug:**** Today’s CC had already existed for nearly 1, 500 yearsand can be traced back to the Apostles themselves; and therefore to Christ Himself. Should one wish to kid themselves that tthis in not the singular truth; one cannot find either historical or biblical evidence to support their case. and therefore must rely on feelings NOT FACTS!**

***Because the CC is some TWO THOUSAND YEARS OLD one ought NOT assme they can get all the answers they seek is a few weeks or months.[batman; the course WILL answer your many questions if given the opportunity to do so. A SOUL IS A TERIBLE THING TO LOSE [WASTE]; and God’s way for ones personal salvation is NOT the way made easier, simpler, more convient in the various Protestant communions. Were this not so; Christ became incanate and lost every soul until Luther, Calvin, Smith and other personally motivated MORTAL men. If the CC is wrong [morally IMPOSSIBLE] then there is NO SALVATION AT ALL and heaven, hell, and purgatory are mere myths. ARE YOU WILLING TO BET YOUR SALVATION ON THIS? DON’T because you’ll lose!

God Bless you, hang in there and KEEP ASKING questions***!

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

 

[RebeccaJ]

Okay, since no-one wants to tackle hell besides PJM (No offense Pat, I just want other opinions) in an e-mail, I’ll share with you a concern of mine. In an address in July of 1999, Pope John Paul II says “Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” Sacred Scripture says the exact opposite. Matt. 13:41-42;Matt. 25:41-46; 2 Thess. 1:8; Rev. 14: 10; 20:10-15; 21:8. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Jews don’t believe in a real literal hell either.Jesus spoke of hell almost as much as He spoke of Heaven. And, the language was specific and graphic. Hell is real. People do go there. To say anything less IMHO is not a “hot” idea.

I don’t think he precludes hell as not being a physical state.

If you start with what heaven is, it is defined by our relationship to the Holy Trinity, our state of being one with God. By saying this, I am not saying heaven is not a place, I’m saying what heaven is, at an important and experiential level.

Conversely, hell can be defined by what it is not. A removal from our relationship with the Holy Trinity, a state lacking in the presence of God. This does not mean that hell is not a physical place.

If you could find the document where Pope John Paul II is teaching this, I think it would help to put it in context. Also you can check the CCC, hell is clearly defined as being a literal place.

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather ... all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I still think this Mary thing is way out of line for me. With what I know of Sacred Scripture, it’s not biblical. And, no one, save PJM in an email addressed hell. (Telstar touched it briefly) These are serious issues. I’m beginning to think that maybe becoming LCMS ain’t such a bad idea.

Here’s how I see some of what you are experiencing, as I experienced it myself. You are diving into unfamiliar waters, and having that anxiety that’s telling you you’re going to drown. It is an emotional response, which can be very strong, no doubt.

Time to take a deep breath and learn what the Catholic church teaches, rather than what you are fearing it teaches. There isn’t anything to fear in Mary. She has many titles, one of my favorites is Star Of The Sea (Maris Stella), our sure Star, who will guide you to her Son.

Read the CCC entries on Mary. Also, the encyclicals Spe Salvi and Lumen Gentium. They’re all online, just google. (looks like Vatican.va is down/slow…maybe try later)

Pray for patience, guidance and protection from what’s false.

 

[Nevets]

My grandmother was a devout Southern Baptist. My brother often says, that if Ma isn´t in Heaven nobody is. I believe she is in Heaven. Now she never ate the flesh, nor drank the blood of our Lord. Our Lord said that this was necessary in order to enter into heaven. He´s not a liar and He´s perfectly just. It would be unjust for Ma to enter into Heaven without first eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our Savior. It would also be unjust for Ma to be denied Heaven. Purgatory answers that problem. I´m glad there´s a Purgatory. I´m glad that Ma is in Heaven. God bless:thumbsup:

Please explain Purgatory ,where is the refrence in the Bible to this affect please?.
Matt 26 v 29, Jesus said, I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom… please explain why you think it is his Blood? will he then drink his own blood when he is with us in his Fathers kingdom?. He clearly states it to be fruit of the vine.Surely it represents the Body ,being the bread, and the New Covenant with man. Otherwise if you believe you are eating his Flesh and drinking his blood,then you would have to crucify Jesus at each communion.

 

[pablope]

Please explain Purgatory ,where is the refrence in the Bible to this affect please?.

This should have the explanation, theological background and biblical references both OT and NT…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Matt 26 v 29, Jesus said, I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom… please explain why you think it is his Blood? will he then drink his own blood when he is with us in his Fathers kingdom?. He clearly states it to be fruit of the vine.Surely it represents the Body ,being the bread, and the New Covenant with man. Otherwise if you believe you are eating his Flesh and drinking his blood,then you would have to crucify Jesus at each communion.

 

[Telstar]

Okay, since no-one wants to tackle hell besides PJM (No offense Pat, I just want other opinions) in an e-mail, I’ll share with you a concern of mine. In an address in July of 1999, Pope John Paul II says “Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” Sacred Scripture says the exact opposite. Matt. 13:41-42;Matt. 25:41-46; 2 Thess. 1:8; Rev. 14: 10; 20:10-15; 21:8. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Jews don’t believe in a real literal hell either.Jesus spoke of hell almost as much as He spoke of Heaven. And, the language was specific and graphic. Hell is real. People do go there. To say anything less IMHO is not a “hot” idea.

Hell is something that all theologians have grappled with understanding, ever since the times of the Old Testament. Christian theologians aren’t any different than those holy souls of the OT that tried to figure it out. What Blessed John Paul II said about it not being a ‘physical’ place is probably very true, especially when you consider the fact that the souls of the departed are only spiritual entities at this point in ‘time’, so they are all outside of the “physical” realm as we understand it. In the Apocalypse it says that the devil and his followers aren’t actually thrown into the “lake of fire” until the general resurrection of the dead and the final judgement. So until that time, it must be assumed that hell is a only spiritual realm, just like Heaven is, now (except hell is separated from God).

[The ‘physical’ bodies in Heaven at this point (Jesus, Mary and several prophets of the OT), are those who already possess ‘glorified’ bodies, which are not subject to the same physical realities and laws as we are, on earth.]

No one really knows for sure if the Biblical descriptions of hell as a ‘fiery furnace’ are meant to be taken literally, or if they’re only meant to bring to our minds the real pain and suffering of all souls that are separated from God, for all eternity. They might only be meant to make us understand that hell is a place that no one would ever want to go. But, hell is most certainly a ‘place’ of eternal torment and punishment for all unrepentant sinners. That’s a fact that most theologians certainly do agree on, and it is an actual teaching of the Catholic Church.

In modern times, most people don’t want to believe that God would ever confine souls to a fiery prison, to be burned forever by its literal flames. On the other hand, God’s Holy Justice demands that those who grievously sin without any remorse, deserve to be punished according to the degree of their sinfulness, just as the holy souls that do His will on earth are to be rewarded in Heaven, to the degree that they were faithful to Him. God promised both of those things would happen, so He must keep those promises in order to satisfy His Justice. What all of the punishments of hell will be, is as unclear as all the rewards that the faithful will receive in Heaven. No one really knows for certain.

It’s very possible that John Paul II may have been of the opinion that the fire of hell referred to in the Bible was not necessarily to be taken literally, but only meant to be a metaphor for the suffering inflicted on souls, due to their separation from God’s love. I’m not so sure that I would totally agree with his personal opinion, if that’s what he was actually expressing in that instance. But, as with so many other theologians, there is a lot of speculation about what the punishments of hell actually are. I tend to believe that the fire is literal, at least to a certain degree.

But, where hell is, or will be actually located, is another subject altogether, and also one that’s been debated by theologians for centuries. It’s one of those many mysteries that we won’t really know or understand for certain, until we cross over the veil. All I know for sure, is that I don’t want to end up in hell, whatever or wherever it is.

 

[RebeccaJ]

re: Mary, good scriptural references given but you also need to remember Sacred Tradition. Mary has always been more than special in Catholic teaching, from the very beginning. Called the second or new Eve, because of her yes to the will of God. Mary, Ever Virgin, described as Catholic belief in the early 2nd century.

The rosary mysteries are a good teacher of Marian doctrines, which have ancient origins, as far back as the catacombs in Rome.