Mysteries of the Rosary - Tuesdays and Wednesdays

[twf]

We traditionally pray the sorrowful mysteries on Tuesdays and the glorious mysteries on Wednesdays- Why is this? It seems to me that this practice is out of sync with the ancient liturgical practice of fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays. Since the time of the apostles, Wednesday and Friday have always been days of penance (Wednesday in honor of Our Lord’s betrayal and Friday in honor of His passion and death) - in the Latin Church, emphasis on Wednesdays gradually decreased, but we still see remnants of it in Ember days and during Lent (particularly Ash Wednesday). Among our Eastern brothers and sisters, both Catholic and Orthodox, all Wednesdays and all Fridays are still generally maintained as days of fasting. I believe that in the West many of the religious orders still keep the penitential nature of Wednesday. My question is - why do we pray the glorious mysteries on Wednesday and the sorrowful on Tuesday? Why isn’t it the reverse?

 

[TrueLight]

We traditionally pray the sorrowful mysteries on Tuesdays and the glorious mysteries on Wednesdays- Why is this? It seems to me that this practice is out of sync with the ancient liturgical practice of fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays. Since the time of the apostles, Wednesday and Friday have always been days of penance (Wednesday in honor of Our Lord’s betrayal and Friday in honor of His passion and death) - in the Latin Church, emphasis on Wednesdays gradually decreased, but we still see remnants of it in Ember days and during Lent (particularly Ash Wednesday). Among our Eastern brothers and sisters, both Catholic and Orthodox, all Wednesdays and all Fridays are still generally maintained as days of fasting. I believe that in the West many of the religious orders still keep the penitential nature of Wednesday. My question is - why do we pray the glorious mysteries on Wednesday and the sorrowful on Tuesday? Why isn’t it the reverse?

That is a good question. I just started praying the traditional rosary regularly and I was surprised that Wednesday was not for the sorrowful mysteries.

When I can, I abstain on Wednesday’s and Fridays (yes, I know it’s not required), so I don’t understand why we pray the glorious mysteries.

Granted, I haven’t looked that deeply into it, but it’s a thpught that tickles my brain…

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

We traditionally pray the sorrowful mysteries on Tuesdays and the glorious mysteries on Wednesdays- Why is this? It seems to me that this practice is out of sync with the ancient liturgical practice of fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays. Since the time of the apostles, Wednesday and Friday have always been days of penance (Wednesday in honor of Our Lord’s betrayal and Friday in honor of His passion and death) - in the Latin Church, emphasis on Wednesdays gradually decreased, but we still see remnants of it in Ember days and during Lent (particularly Ash Wednesday). Among our Eastern brothers and sisters, both Catholic and Orthodox, all Wednesdays and all Fridays are still generally maintained as days of fasting. I believe that in the West many of the religious orders still keep the penitential nature of Wednesday. My question is - why do we pray the glorious mysteries on Wednesday and the sorrowful on Tuesday? Why isn’t it the reverse?

I was wondering this myself.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious… this is the order of the mysteries. It’s simply sheer coincidence about which day the mysteries were traditionally said on fall. All the days of Lent are days of penance (excepting Sundays and solemn Feasts) but that doesn’t stop us from reciting the joyful mysteries.

We don’t say the Sorrow mysteries on Friday because Friday is a penitential day. It’s just worked out like that.

 

[TrueLight]

Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious… this is the order of the mysteries. It’s simply sheer coincidence about which day the mysteries were traditionally said on fall. All the days of Lent are days of penance (excepting Sundays and solemn Feasts) but that doesn’t stop us from reciting the joyful mysteries.

We don’t say the Sorrow mysteries on Friday because Friday is a penitential day. It’s just worked out like that.

Hmm.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Hmm.

Hmm?

 

[Joe_5859]

Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious… this is the order of the mysteries. It’s simply sheer coincidence about which day the mysteries were traditionally said on fall. All the days of Lent are days of penance (excepting Sundays and solemn Feasts) but that doesn’t stop us from reciting the joyful mysteries.

We don’t say the Sorrow mysteries on Friday because Friday is a penitential day. It’s just worked out like that.

I have no official documentation, but that would be my hunch as well. That’s just the chronological order of the traditional set of Mysteries: Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious = Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday / Thursday, Friday, Saturday (with rotating Sundays).

Of course, JP II added the Luminous Mysteries and tried to switch it up as minimally as possible, so it’s not quite chronological anymore. But I guess the Pope can do those sorts of things.

In any case, this is just a case of personal pious tradition. There’s nothing stopping someone from praying the Sorrowful Mysteries on Wednesday if they feel so inclined.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Of course, JP II added the Luminous Mysteries and tried to switch it up as minimally as possible, so it’s not quite chronological anymore. But I guess the Pope can do those sorts of things.

The Holy Father suggested them, he didn’t add them .

 

[Mrs_Sally]

We do pray the Luminous mysteries and often pray them in order, so we end up praying the Luminous on Wednesdays, Sorrowful of Thursday, and Glorious on Fridays. You can pray an set of mysteries on any day that you want, even though the Church has a recommended/traditional order. Especially if you are praying your rosary alone or with a small (not public) group, you can pray whichever mysteries are most appropriate for the intention, or just whichever one you feel like. Of course if you pray the entire (15 or 20 decades) rosary, it doesn’t matter.

 

[Joe_5859]

The Holy Father suggested them, he didn’t add them .

Okay, how about we say he suggested that they be added.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Okay, how about we say he suggested that they be added.

Or rather we’ll say he proposed them for the faithful who would like to recite them but did not add them to the rosary. All indulgences, obligations for the Rosary Confraternity, require the traditional fifteen mysteries .

 

[twf]

Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious… this is the order of the mysteries. It’s simply sheer coincidence about which day the mysteries were traditionally said on fall. All the days of Lent are days of penance (excepting Sundays and solemn Feasts) but that doesn’t stop us from reciting the joyful mysteries.

We don’t say the Sorrow mysteries on Friday because Friday is a penitential day. It’s just worked out like that.

I still don’t quite get it. The Church teaches that our entire prayer life - our entire spirituality, should be rooted in the liturgy. It is for this reason that the faithful are encouraged (though not required) to participate in the divine office in addition to assisting at holy mass. Should not our devotions - particularly one such as the rosary which is so strongly supported by the Church - reflect her liturgical life - that is, the prayer of Christ through His body the Church? Does not the Church, in her sacred liturgy, give us certain themes to reflect day by day? If the ‘feel’ of Wednesdays is penitential, I just don’t get how a “glorious” devotion jives with it. I am not trying to cast any doubt on the value of the rosary whatsoever… it just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[TrueLight]

I just don’t get how a “glorious” devotion jives with it. I am not trying to cast any doubt on the value of the rosary whatsoever… it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Maybe it is because it is a devotional?

I don’t know.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I still don’t quite get it. The Church teaches that our entire prayer life - our entire spirituality, should be rooted in the liturgy. It is for this reason that the faithful are encouraged (though not required) to participate in the divine office in addition to assisting at holy mass. Should not our devotions - particularly one such as the rosary which is so strongly supported by the Church - reflect her liturgical life - that is, the prayer of Christ through His body the Church? Does not the Church, in her sacred liturgy, give us certain themes to reflect day by day? If the ‘feel’ of Wednesdays is penitential, I just don’t get how a “glorious” devotion jives with it. I am not trying to cast any doubt on the value of the rosary whatsoever… it just doesn’t make sense to me.

And the rosary doesn’t reflect the liturgical life of the Church? Before the reforms that came after Vatican II, the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) contained 150 Psalms that were said throughout the week. The 150 Ave Maria mimics this. This is why we call the Rosary Our Lady’s Psalter.

And Wednesday doesn’t have a Penitential theme any more, except on Ember Wednesdays according to the 1962 liturgical life. But you don’t have to fast or abstain on Ember Wednesdays.

And you know, there’s nothing contrary to not sticking to the day’s “theme” all the way. On the Feast of the Assumption of Our Lady, for talking’s sake, doesn’t meant I cannot meditate upon her Immaculate Conception.

You can’t isolate everything. There’s a continuum in our faith. It all connects together. Sure we should try and model our spiritual lives on the liturgy (Divine Office and Holy Mass) but that doesn’t mean you have to stick to it rigidly. If you don’t want to pray the Glorious Mysteries on a Wednesday, change the order if you wish. It wont make any sense, because it’s a logical sequence, but do so if you wish. You’re not bound to the traditional days that the rosary was said on. You can gain an indulgence, assuming you meet the proper requirements, by saying the Joyful Mysteries on a Friday. The days have very little to do with it. It is as simple as how the mysteries have been broken down.

It’s easily avoidable by just saying the entire rosary a day !

P.S. And don’t forget, even the Psalms chosen for particular Feast days, etc., in the Divine Office, will not be completely consistent. Some will be penitential, others will not be so obvious, and the like.

 

[Marian_Devotee]

It’s easily avoidable by just saying the entire rosary a day !

Righto!

 

[twf]

And the rosary doesn’t reflect the liturgical life of the Church? Before the reforms that came after Vatican II, the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) contained 150 Psalms that were said throughout the week. The 150 Ave Maria mimics this. This is why we call the Rosary Our Lady’s Psalter.

And Wednesday doesn’t have a Penitential theme any more, except on Ember Wednesdays according to the 1962 liturgical life. But you don’t have to fast or abstain on Ember Wednesdays.

And you know, there’s nothing contrary to not sticking to the day’s “theme” all the way. On the Feast of the Assumption of Our Lady, for talking’s sake, doesn’t meant I cannot meditate upon her Immaculate Conception.

You can’t isolate everything. There’s a continuum in our faith. It all connects together. Sure we should try and model our spiritual lives on the liturgy (Divine Office and Holy Mass) but that doesn’t mean you have to stick to it rigidly. If you don’t want to pray the Glorious Mysteries on a Wednesday, change the order if you wish. It wont make any sense, because it’s a logical sequence, but do so if you wish. You’re not bound to the traditional days that the rosary was said on. You can gain an indulgence, assuming you meet the proper requirements, by saying the Joyful Mysteries on a Friday. The days have very little to do with it. It is as simple as how the mysteries have been broken down.

It’s easily avoidable by just saying the entire rosary a day !

P.S. And don’t forget, even the Psalms chosen for particular Feast days, etc., in the Divine Office, will not be completely consistent. Some will be penitential, others will not be so obvious, and the like.

That’s a fair point, and it helps… though the existence of Ash Wednesday certainly points to the historical penitential nature of the day… Spy Wednesday as well has a very sorrowful feel to it. In terms of the Psalms, I find that they are so rich that one can normally find a link with the themes of the feast of the day… but you are right to point out that our meditations need not necessarily be limited to the dominant liturgical theme of the day/week/season - thanks for that reminder. Friday is a day of penance, yet we celebrate the holy sacrifice of the mass, which intrinsically celebrates both the death and resurrection of Our Lord, every Friday (with the exception of Good Friday)…

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The rosary is a private devotion. It is not required and there is no required way of saying it. People who belong to voluntary organizations like the Confraternity or the Legion of Mary, usually say it the way taught by the group. But for everyone else there is no binding method - how can there be when even saying the rosary at all is optional??

If you say a decade a day, say whatever decade you feel like - either based on the traditional order, the nature of the day, particular memorial, or your own circumstances. If you say a complete rosary, you obviously cover it all.

 

[JReducation]

What you have hear is the convergence of three distinct cultures.

1. Wednesdays and Fridays were held as days of penance by the Eastern Churches. After the Great Schism, the practice of Wednesdays was almost lost in the Latin Church. It was maintained the Benedictines and the Franciscans, no one else was bound to it, to this day. Every Latin is bound only to Friday. Benedictines and Franciscans are still bound to Wed and Fri.
2. The Churches organized their days of penance around their liturgical calendars. Each of the 23 Catholic Churches has a slightly different liturgical calendar. To make matters more complicated, in the Latin Church we have five major religious orders that would not give up their liturgical calendars, which differ slightly from the Roman Calendar. The Church ruled that they could keep their calendars, because they are exempt religious. Only the Benedictines and Franciscans have penance as a theme in their mass and Divine Office on Wednesdays. Everyone has it on Friday only.
3. The Rosary is not part of the liturgical prayer life of the universal Catholic Church. Not every Catholic Church prays the rosary. It has never been declared to be a public prayer of the Church. Therefore, it is not bound by any rules that govern the religious orders or the liturgical calendars. In fact, there are five variations on the rosary. The most common one is the Dominican rosary, which is the one that most Latin Catholics pray. However, when St. Dominic taught the rosary,it had no mysteries. His inspiration came from the Office of the Paters. Because of his great devotion to Our Lady, she inspired him to use the rosary to evangelize, just as they had used the Office of the Paters for those who could not read the breviary. It was long after St. Dominic’s death that the Dominicans began to add pieces to the rosary. One of the things that they added were the 15 mysteries.

The distribution of the mysteries is not the Church’s doing. It’s a Dominican tradition that caught on like fire among Latin Catholics and some Eastern Catholics, but mostly Latin Catholics. Popes have added to it here and there out of their personal devotion, not as a formal rule.

There were only two formal modifications to the rosary. By formal I mean that they came from authoritative sources.

1. Around 1495 the "Holy Mary . . . " was added to the Hail Mary and the Catechism of Trent would give it its official endorsement.
2. Later, Pope John Paul wrote the Luminous mysteries to add reflection on the Christ as Light of the World.

Other than those two interventions, there have bee no formal modifications to the rosary or the mysteries. In fact, there are differences in the way that it’s prayed between East and West.

You’re really free to move the mysteries around. It was an arrangement made by the Dominicans, who did not observe Wednesdays as a day of penance, because it was not part of St. Dominic’s tradition. I don’t remember why the Dominicans arranged it this way.

My guess is that it may be to help people remember the chronology of events.

Mon - Joyful

Tue - Sorrowful

Wed - Glorious

Then you begin again.

What Dominican scholars assert is that Our Lady never handed Dominic a rosary, nor did she teach him the mysteries. Dominic never said that such a thing happened and his contemporaries never mention it. However, we do know of a very devout Dominican Friar who created the rosary that we know today and of the mysteries being added by the Dominicans as an aid to prayer for those who could not do Lectio Divina. Everyone agrees that Our Lady was the motivating force behind the development of the Rosary. It is her prayer and Dominic has a mystical connection with her.

Some Eastern Catholics have a different organization for the Rosary. German Dominicans have a fifth set of mysteries called the Comforting Mysteries…

Franciscans have a seven decade rosary for the Seven Sorrows of Mary and the Seven Joys of Mary. These are not prayed by days, but by seasons. The Sorrows are prayed during the three Lents on the Franciscan calendar.

Feel free to move the mysteries around. As long as the Church does not have a ruling on it, Our Lady is fine with it. She would never contradict the Church or command what the Church does not command. However, she is honored that we pray the rosary as often as possible. The 20 decades in one day would be a beautiful offering to her: morning, midday, evening and night.

Some parts of Spain do that when someone dies. The pray the entire rosary in one day in front of the casket, for the repose of the soul and the consolation of the loved ones.

That’s the beauty of the rosary. Since it’s not liturgy, as is the Divine Office, we can adjust it to our circumstances and spiritual needs and at the same time, others can join us in prayer, because everyone knows the basic prayers.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Brother you really should have mentioned that Catholics are perfectly free to believe Our Lady have Saint Dominic her psalter directly. And that not all Dominicans agree with your scholars. But I don’t want to get into that again. What I wanted to say is…

1. Wednesdays and Fridays were held as days of penance by the Eastern Churches. After the Great Schism, the practice of Wednesdays was almost lost in the Latin Church. It was maintained the Benedictines and the Franciscans, no one else was bound to it, to this day. Every Latin is bound only to Friday. Benedictines and Franciscans are still bound to Wed and Fri.

You forgot the Carmelites. Wednesday as a penitential day does survive to some extent in the Brown Scapular and the Sabbatine Privilege. Abstaining from flesh meat on Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays, in substitution for the Little Office. Though of course this is not liturgical. I don’t know about actual Carmelite Use, it may survive there. This could be a relic from the eastern origins of the Carmelite possibly?

 

[JReducation]

Brother you really should have mentioned that Catholics are perfectly free to believe Our Lady have Saint Dominic her psalter directly. And that not all Dominicans agree with your scholars. But I don’t want to get into that again. What I wanted to say is…

I was actually taught this by Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP, who was the Director of Spiritual Theology at the Angelicum, may he RIP.

To my surprise, I believe that it was Fr. Vincent, who put up an article on Catholic Answers, not CAF, with the same explanation and it’s also in New Advent

**St. Dominic earnestly besought the help of Our Lady and was instructed by her, so tradition asserts, to preach the Rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin.

In any case it is certain that in the course of the twelfth century and before the birth of St. Dominic, the practice of reciting 50 or 150 Ave Marias had become generally familiar.

On the other hand, the practice of meditating on certain definite mysteries, which has been rightly described as the very essence of the Rosary devotion, seems to have only arisen long after the date of St. Dominic’s death.

We have positive evidence that both the invention of the beads as a counting apparatus and also the practice of repeating a hundred and fifty Aves cannot be due to St. Dominic, because they are both notably older than his time. Further, we are assured that the meditating upon the mysteries was not introduced until two hundred years after his death.

Of the eight or nine early Lives of the saint, not one makes the faintest allusion to the Rosary. The witnesses who gave evidence in the cause of his canonization are equally reticent. In the great collection of documents accumulated by Fathers Balme and Lelaidier, O.P., in their “Cartulaire de St. Dominique” the question is studiously ignored. The early constitutions of the different provinces of the order have been examined, and many of them printed, but no one has found any reference to this devotion.**

newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm

As you can see, the Rosary is the pre-eminent prayer of the people. Our Lady’s hand cannot be denied. St. Dominic’s role in promoting it is not denied either. What the Dominicans challenge is the story that she actually handed him a physical rosary, since there already was such a set of beads and this form of prayer already existed before he was born. But the mysteries came into existence long after his death.

You may want to drop Fr. Vincent Serpa, OP a PM with the question, “Did the Blessed Mother give St. Dominic the rosary?” He’s a Dominican and a theologian. He’s accessible through Ask An Apologist.

You forgot the Carmelites. Wednesday as a penitential day does survive to some extent in the Brown Scapular and the Sabbatine Privilege. Abstaining from flesh meat on Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays, in substitution for the Little Office. Though of course this is not liturgical. I don’t know about actual Carmelite Use, it may survive there. This could be a relic from the eastern origins of the Carmelite possibly?

I didn’t mention it, because I’m not sure if they still do this or not. I only have contact with the White Friars, not with the Discalced. You probably know more about them than I do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF