Mystery of Free-will

[PelagiathePenit]

While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief.

For example, St. Therese, the little flower, once asked God why some people in the world are born into the world only to die without ever knowing God.

God revealed to her that we are all like flowers in his garden. Some will be roses and lilies while others are little wildflowers.

In this revelation, does the concept of free will actually exist? If God has already predetermined who will be the rose and who will be the wildflower, then how can free will exist?

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

 

[John_Martin]

In the state prison near here, there are many people who are not allowed to go where they want, where they would “will”, but walk where others require.
Little Flower did not ask about these, but about those who were walking where they desired to walk.
Free will is not about who or what you are, but it is about whether you are constrained or not in your desires, no matter what you are.

St. Augustine was not forced against his desire in his early years of immoral living to do these immoral acts.
And it was the appearance of something “desirable” (Jesus, the Church) that he in his “selfish appetite of free desires” went after - he sought to possess this desirable Jesus (this is God in Gratuitous Grace revealing himself to our selfishness, so that we choose what we do not understand in its depth).

The act of sex is good; St. Augustine willingly (free will) made defective use of it, extremely, and of other things, by not doing all his doings virtuously. He did nothing virtuously, not even seeking Jesus when he first caught sight of him, yet when he "free-willfully obtained what he wanted and apprehended Jesus, and Jesus entered into him, there was a new creature. Defective doing, evil, missing the mark, was no longer his desire, no longer his free will. Instead his desire of where to walk what walking toward the target of knowing and being known by God.

Jesus was not sent into the world to condemn us, but to be seen by us, to grab our notice, and stimulate our appetite to be with him. And when we have him, we suddenly find that he has us and we are new creatures.

 

[Jon_S_1]

While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief.

For example, St. Therese, the little flower, once asked God why some people in the world are born into the world only to die without ever knowing God.

God revealed to her that we are all like flowers in his garden. Some will be roses and lilies while others are little wildflowers.

In this revelation, does the concept of free will actually exist? If God has already predetermined who will be the rose and who will be the wildflower, then how can free will exist?

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

Yes free will exists.

In your example, the church does not teach that the “wild flowers” go to hell. Even if they don’t know Jesus, they may be saved by their response to God as they understand it.

As for evil.

Indeed evil is a deprivation of Good. Pure evil exists. It is a complete emptying of all good. White is a mix of all colors. As you move through the spectrum, colors come off (varying degrees of evil) until you reach black, a complete absence of color (evil). Does black exist?

 

[OneSheep]

Yes free will exists.

In your example, the church does not teach that the “wild flowers” go to hell. Even if they don’t know Jesus, they may be saved by their response to God as they understand it.

As for evil.

Indeed evil is a deprivation of Good. Pure evil exists. It is a complete emptying of all good. White is a mix of all colors. As you move through the spectrum, colors come off (varying degrees of evil) until you reach black, a complete absence of color (evil). Does black exist?

Hi Jon,

Black exists, but the black that we see in space is an absence of light. So what we see is characterized as a color, but it is an absence. Black “exists” as a characterization.

Arguably, “evil” is also a characterization. In the long analysis it does not exist as a matter or force, but is our characterization of something that is essentially good. It cannot be analyzed as a whole concept, though. And in my experience, there is good reason to hold true that evil exists, and there is good reason for not holding true such existence. It is not an “either/or” issue.

Hello PtP:

St. Augustine wrote: “through the Spirit we see that whatever exists in any way is good”, but he never said that everything that happens is good. So if God does punish, he is punishing for something that occurs rather than exists. The important tie in all of this is that when we witness or experience an evil act, we naturally resent (find/characterize as evil) the source of the act itself.

Our benevolent Father destines no one for punishment. Natural consequences for our behaviors happen, but do they reflect anything other than our Father’s mercy?

:twocents:

 

[GEddie]

Free-will is in part a mirage; our Will is as conditioned as the rest of our being.

But if we take that into account and properly use what freedom it seems we have, we should be ok.

ICXC NIKA

 

[LittleFlower378]

While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief.

For example, St. Therese, the little flower, once asked God why some people in the world are born into the world only to die without ever knowing God.

God revealed to her that we are all like flowers in his garden. Some will be roses and lilies while others are little wildflowers.

In this revelation, does the concept of free will actually exist? If God has already predetermined who will be the rose and who will be the wildflower, then how can free will exist?

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

God is all knowing, and God doesnt exist in time. So free-will and the fact God knows whether a person is going to heaven or hell can both exist at the same time.

God doesnt create evil but our free will can choose evil. Everything created by God is good but through the fall and our own sin we have chosen evil. God’s redeeming power is open to all, so thank God for the grace of repentance.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Evil doesn’t exist as a created thing, in the way a tree does. It is defined by what it is not. Darkness doesn’t exist either; it’s a lack of light. There are no darkness particles or darkness waves.

In the same way, evil is a lack of goodness. Rape could not exist without sex, but sex could exist without rape. There cannot be murder without the existence of life, but life could exist without murder. A lie could not happen without the existence of truth, but the truth could exist without lies.

This is how we know two other things. God is good, because all things in existence are good. Good (and thus God) is also infinitely greater and more powerful than evil, since evil can’t even exist on its own.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Evil doesn’t exist as a created thing, in the way a tree does. It is defined by what it is not. Darkness doesn’t exist either; it’s a lack of light. There are no darkness particles or darkness waves.

In the same way, evil is a lack of goodness. Rape could not exist without sex, but sex could exist without rape. There cannot be murder without the existence of life, but life could exist without murder. A lie could not happen without the existence of truth, but the truth could exist without lies.

This is how we know two other things. God is good, because all things in existence are good. Good (and thus God) is also infinitely greater and more powerful than evil, since evil can’t even exist on its own.

Wow.

 

[o_mlly]

While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief. …]

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

Everything that God has created, everything that exists has some level of perfection, some level of goodness, some relationship to God’s perfect idea of it. When we choose to perceive God’s creatures with reference to ourselves, we relegate them to the kingdom of the world seeing only their utility, measuring their worth only in the pleasure they may give us. This is evil.

But if we accept the nudge of the Holy Spirit and behold them as a reflection of their Creator, we see their beauty and truth; we experience sacrament. We make the profane sacred.

 

[OneSheep]

Everything that God has created, everything that exists has some level of perfection, some level of goodness, some relationship to God’s perfect idea of it. When we choose to perceive God’s creatures with reference to ourselves, we relegate them to the kingdom of the world seeing only their utility, measuring their worth only in the pleasure they may give us. This is evil.

But if we accept the nudge of the Holy Spirit and behold them as a reflection of their Creator, we see their beauty and truth; we experience sacrament. We make the profane sacred.

Hello o milly,

Isn’t it a matter of what I see as profane is actually sacred? For example, here are some rather profane-looking aspects of our being:

*]Concupiscence (a propensity to excessive indulgence in one’s bodily appetites)
*]Irascibility (an aversion to arduous tasks),
*]A dulling of the intellect and reason
*]An increased capacity to demonic domination
*]Suffering and death
.

Some of these, too, can be seen as beautiful, functional aspects of our being, one can be dismissed as not aspects of our being, and others can be seen as neutral.

When it comes to “demonic domination”, then we are once again referring to an existing entity, having power and/or material existence. Is the demonic a reflection of our creator? This runs into some problems; they are resolvable.

BTW: we were having a great discussion on that thread, I would enjoy a continued conversation there also, unless you lost interest.

Blessings

 

[OneSheep]

Evil doesn’t exist as a created thing, in the way a tree does. It is defined by what it is not. Darkness doesn’t exist either; it’s a lack of light. There are no darkness particles or darkness waves.

Good (and thus God) is also infinitely greater and more powerful than evil, since evil can’t even exist on its own.

Hi Bill,

If you are saying, however, that evil has any power at all, then it is an existence. It would have particle or wave characteristic.

Or, you may be using the words in a mixture of verb and noun, like “the power of suffering” or “the power of rebellion”, which refer to occurrences rather than existence.

Straighten me out here…

 

[fhansen]

Hi Bill,

If you are saying, however, that evil has any power at all, then it is an existence. It would have particle or wave characteristic.

Or, you may be using the words in a mixture of verb and noun, like “the power of suffering” or “the power of rebellion”, which refer to occurrences rather than existence.

Straighten me out here…

Moral evil or sin has only the power given it by beings who can act it out-who have particle or wave characteristics, themselves, IOW. This is because such evil is centered in and made possible by the will. But that makes it no less a reality, due to the very real harm it can cause. Love, as well, is dependent on the existence of actual lovers. God, who apparently has no particle or wave characteristics Himself, loves, and is love, in fact.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Hi Bill,

If you are saying, however, that evil has any power at all, then it is an existence. It would have particle or wave characteristic.

Or, you may be using the words in a mixture of verb and noun, like “the power of suffering” or “the power of rebellion”, which refer to occurrences rather than existence.

Straighten me out here…

I mean that it has power as an occurrence, but it is not capable of real, tangible existence. The wind for example, follows a similar theory. The wind has power, but only as an occurrence. It is the movement of existing molecules that make up the air. There is no wind molecule. Darkness too has no tangible existence since it is merely a lack of light, but it has the power to cause problems if you need to see properly.

However, I am not saying that evil is somehow imaginary just because it is lacks the kind of existence a rock or a tree has. It’s a perversion, destruction, or lack of some good thing, yet perversions, destructions, or voids are very real. We don’t say darkness doesn’t exist, even though darkness is just a lack of something else.

If the analogies above don’t help, then throw them out. They’re just an aid. The main point is that evil can’t exist without good things to pervert or destroy, yet goodness can exist without evil. This means that good is infinitely greater than evil, since evil owes its entire pathetic “existence” (if it can even be called that) to some good thing.

 

[fred_conty]

While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief.

For example, St. Therese, the little flower, once asked God why some people in the world are born into the world only to die without ever knowing God.

God revealed to her that we are all like flowers in his garden. Some will be roses and lilies while others are little wildflowers.

In this revelation, does the concept of free will actually exist? If God has already predetermined who will be the rose and who will be the wildflower, then how can free will exist?

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

Originally Posted by PelagiathePenit
While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief.

“conflicts” is a strong word. Maybe “mystery” like the interaction of grace with free will. “conflict” seems to indicate the impossible.

For example, St. Therese, the little flower, once asked God why some people in the world are born into the world only to die without ever knowing God.

But they do know God, in some way. And as St. Paul said that everyone has the natural law written on their hearts which comes from God. This implies that these people are created good people tho they have not had their adoption as children of God. Although we don’t know what happens to these people at death, we do know for sure that God is loving, kind, and just, revealed by Jesus.

God revealed to her that we are all like flowers in his garden. Some will be roses and lilies while others are little wildflowers.

This is just another way that Jesus himself said that the good seed produces 100 fold, or 60 fold, or 30 fold.

In this revelation, does the concept of free will actually exist?

I don’t know that it is a revelation, but isn’t it something we already know just thru our own experience … that we choose all the time about many different things? Going to the grocery store, there are long isles of breakfast food from which to choose. We decide what street we live on and what job we want to do. Whether to cut the lawn or let it go for a couple more days. To eat chicken or beef tonight. And so on in the list of choices we make every day. We know we are free.

If God has already predetermined who will be the rose and who will be the wildflower, then how can free will exist?

Aren’t these things decided by nature thru developement over time? And others are developed by man himself thru domestication. I’ not sure how to express this, but isn’t it mother nature herself that decides all of this, which includes using man as her tool as well.

Having said this, dosen’t God love the rose as much as the dandelion being the creator of both indirectly thru time.

St. Teresa was expressing the idea that God give graces as he wishes, more or less, but always enough. But she didn’t go into the idea that God also blesses us more the more we cooperate with him in seeking his will.

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

It does say in scripture that God creates evil. But … there are different kinds of evil to consider. For instance, God told king David that his son would die because of his murder of another. It was a punishment. Hell is a punishment as well even tho men are the ones who put themselves there by their own ill doing.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

But there are acts that are intrinsically evil. That means they can never be done for any reason because they are evil in themselves … abortion … murder … blasphemy … adultery …

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

A mystery is such because we cannot completely grasp it with the intellect, such as the Trinity. We may understand it in part, but never completely. But It is good to know it even partially because it helps us to understand many other things about God, and ourselves.

1 Samuel 16:7
God does not see as man sees; man looks at appearances but the Lord looks at the heart.

 

[o_mlly]

Hello o milly,

…]

BTW: we were having a great discussion on that thread, I would enjoy a continued conversation there also, unless you lost interest.

Blessings

I never loose interest in pursuing the truths of our faith. But time and having something to contribute does limit me.

Peace,
o_mlly

 

[OneSheep]

Moral evil or sin has only the power given it by beings who can act it out-who have particle or wave characteristics, themselves, IOW. This is because such evil is centered in and made possible by the will. But that makes it no less a reality, due to the very real harm it can cause. Love, as well, is dependent on the existence of actual lovers. God, who apparently has no particle or wave characteristics Himself, loves, and is love, in fact.

Yes, hurtful actions are hurtful, and they do occur; those actions are a reality.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Bill,

I mean that it has power as an occurrence, but it is not capable of real, tangible existence. The wind for example, follows a similar theory. The wind has power, but only as an occurrence. It is the movement of existing molecules that make up the air. There is no wind molecule. Darkness too has no tangible existence since it is merely a lack of light, but it has the power to cause problems if you need to see properly.

Well, wind does exist because it is matter in motion, and has real energy. It is capable of effects that are not because of use of the power of the thing it effects. Darkness as an absence of light does cause problems, but the problems are a matter of a limitation of the function of those who use sight to maneuver. Darkness itself does not impel. Darkness has no motive.

However, I am not saying that evil is somehow imaginary just because it is lacks the kind of existence a rock or a tree has. It’s a perversion, destruction, or lack of some good thing, yet perversions, destructions, or voids are very real. We don’t say darkness doesn’t exist, even though darkness is just a lack of something else.

If the analogies above don’t help, then throw them out. They’re just an aid.** The main point is that evil can’t exist without good things to pervert or destroy,** yet goodness can exist without evil. This means that good is infinitely greater than evil, since evil owes its entire pathetic “existence” (if it can even be called that) to some good thing.

If there is some thing that can pervert or destroy, then it has an existence. You are saying that evil is not an absence, that it has existence.

To me, another important side issue is that if there is perceived an existence of something that wills to pervert or destroy, it is in our nature to destroy it, as shown in the Salem witch trials. To avoid the confusion, it seems to me that there is some function in using language in a way that never gives “power” to words that lead people to believe that there is some kind of actual “evil existence”. Even if we simply mean “they did evil” when we say “they are evil”, we still run the risk of triggering a dehumanization or demonization of some person, institution, nation, etc. When we say “they are the bad guys” we are sure to inspire someone to resent another, given the emotions underlying the use of negative terms.

If our vocabulary truly reflects our theology, then there is no such thing as a “bad person” or a “force of evil”, right?

 

[OneSheep]

But there are acts that are intrinsically evil. That means they can never be done for any reason because they are evil in themselves … abortion … murder … blasphemy … adultery …

Yes, acts are sometimes evil. Harm can result from some actions.

One can assert that such acts can never be done for any reason because they are evil in themselves, but people who do these acts have reasons. The reasons, of course, are erroneous. They do not know what they are doing.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

While the church teaches the power of free will, there are some conflicts with that belief.

For example, St. Therese, the little flower, once asked God why some people in the world are born into the world only to die without ever knowing God.

God revealed to her that we are all like flowers in his garden. Some will be roses and lilies while others are little wildflowers.

In this revelation, does the concept of free will actually exist? If God has already predetermined who will be the rose and who will be the wildflower, then how can free will exist?

St. Augustine spoke of the concept of evil not existing at all—there are only varying levels of good for God could never create something evil.

If that’s the case, then why should anyone be punished when no act is truly evil?

There are mysteries even the Catholic Church has yet to understand

If is the case that no act is truly evil, then the act of punishing is not evil either. So, what would be the problem?

On the other hand, I think I am one of those little wildflowers, which are free wildflowers. And there are others who are free lilies, or free roses, or…, you know.