Mystic for the 21st century

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi out there in Catholic Answers and also our guests…

I have said before on Catholic Answers that Thomas Merton is to me the mystic who put the language of our mainly possibly 16 th. century (and earlier) mystics into language that is more our everyday speech and understanding. St Therese of Lisieux was another.
I have been reading *“Contemplation in a World of Action” *yet again and one of my favourite of Merton’s books. For those who are attempting to live heremetical type lives, this is the book to get hold of!..Merton has some very interesting things to say on the strict, strict! heremetical life…

This is a quote from Contemplation in a World of Action:

**“I have a profound mistrust of all obligatory answers. The great problem of our time is not to formulate clear answers to neat theoretical questions… *

The way to find the real ‘world’ is not merely to measure and observe what is outside us, but to discover our own inner ground. For that is where the world is, first of all: in my deepest self. But there I find the world to be quite different from the ‘obligatory answers.’ This ‘ground,’ this ‘world’ where I am mysteriously present at once to my own self and to the freedoms of all other men, is not a visible objective and determined structure with fixed laws and demands. It is a living and self-creating mystery of which I am myself a part, to which I am myself my own unique door****. When I find the world in my own ground, it is impossible for me to be alienated by it.”
(bold type and underlining mine)

I would be interested in any comments on the above. I will duck back and give my own thoughts too!

Regards,
Barb at Bethany
South Australia
Thur. 26.5.05 5.13am
Month of Our Lady - St. Phillip Neri

 

[Trelow]

I checked all four because I figure Merton would have as well.

 

[DBT]

Hard to tell where he’s going with this from just one paragraph. But from *just this one quote * there appears, at least to me, a break from the 16th century mystics you mention. This just seems a tad to self-focused.

When was this book written? Was it written sometime after “New Seeds of Contemplation?” My take on that book was that he was trying to provide his own personal interpretation of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. This quote seems like he’s moved beyond their way of thinking.

Dave.

 

[bengeorge]

BarbaraTherese:

“I have a profound mistrust of all obligatory answers. The great problem of our time is not to formulate clear answers to neat theoretical questions…

I would disagree. It seems to me that the great problem of our time is precisely the LACK of clear answers. The world demands that authority bracket it’s responses with “It’s my feeling that…” and “…but that’s just my opinion.”

I don’t understand Merton’s “profound” mistrust of obligatory answers. Some things are, you know, true… and thus obligatory.

BarbaraTherese:

The way to find the real ‘world’ is not merely to measure and observe what is outside us, but to discover our own inner ground. For that is where the world is, first of all: in my deepest self.

No, the real world is real. I don’t understand the quotey-quotes around the word “world”. The world, first of all, exists outside of us. Merton sounds like a Buddhist.

BarbaraTherese:

But there I find the world to be quite different from the ‘obligatory answers.’

Well, of course you will find that your “inner-world” is different from the obligatory answers, the inner-world is your subjective mind, undisciplined and (without those obligatory answers) uneducated.

BarbaraTherese:

This ‘ground,’ this ‘world’ where I am mysteriously present at once to my own self and to the freedoms of all other men, is not a visible objective and determined structure with fixed laws and demands.

This is borderline non-sense. I cannot imagine what he means by “freedoms of all other men”… as found in his own mind?

BarbaraTherese:

It is a living and self-creating mystery of which I am myself a part, to which I am myself my own unique door.

Are we still talking about his inner-world? Self-creating?!

Well I hope I haven’t come across as harsh. I sorta have a violent allergy to fuzzy-thought as typified by Merton.

I’ve tried many times to be fair to Merton and give him the benifit of the doubt, that perhaps he simply sounds Buddhist, and that maybe on a base level he is truly a Catholic, but I have to say, I have my doubts as to his orthodoxy.

 

[DBT]

Hi BarbaraTherese -

It’s an interesting pairing you made in the first post - Thomas Merton and St. Therese. Maybe there were some similarities between the two beyond them both being consecrated religious and contemplatives. Certainly Therese was a mystic . . . but I don’t know enough about Merton that I’d say the same.

But I can say this: The quote provided simply says “Look at me.” I think Therese would have a hard time relating to that way of thinking. Her focus, and all the 16th century mystics you mention, was never on “self” . . . it was always on the “Other.”

Just my opinion . . .

Dave.

 

[springbreeze]

I don’t agree with this quote at all, it goes against every point of psychology and philosophy. A person cannot define the self without first looking outward to another. We are known by our relationships with each other. I am a son, I am a daughter, I am a nurse, I am an artist, I am a father, mother etc. Ultimately we are defined in relation to God, I am a child of God, I know myself and who I am because I know God. I love myself because God loves me, I love God because God loves me. I seek God because God seeks me.

We are defined by the external ‘other’ and that affects the interior of the ‘self’ . This is what we strive for in being part of the Body of Christ, we are simply no longer defined by ‘self’ but by transformation in Christ Jesus, the self no longer exists but that God indwells the self and the self is transformed in God Himself, in, by and through Christ Jesus. We cannot have an interior world, without the exterior world. To be purely interior is to cease, to stop to stagnate, to some extent to cease to be. Interiority is only fed be exteriority and the exterior world is such that it is intrinsic to the interior.

I believe that there is the core personality, maybe this is what Merton is referring to. There is a core personality that would exist should a person never experience anything at all, should a person remain interior all of their life, but this is not possible and so the interior core is always inextricably intertwined with the exterior. I have heard it said ‘what if this had never happened, what kind of person would I have been?’ This is an impossible question to answer such is the personality of the core and such is the infinite number of possible experiences liable to occur that perhaps the same ‘kind’ of person is achieved, perhaps that is the goal of the personality and the personality will not be deviated from it’s core reactions.

There is some truth to the notion that reality exists to some extent in our own perception of it, but that does not give any credance to common truths that we all acknowledge to be a reality, for example, the sun rises everyday and the sun sets everyday, a common truth, therefore a common reality. It is dangerous to suggest we can possess purely a personal reality that is only know in the interior. The exterior also reinforces the interior realities, to withdraw to an interior reality could lead to perceptions gravely flawed and possibly sinful.

There is no interior without the exterior, to suggest otherwise is to deny all that God has worked for humanity. This inward reflection is not one that leads to seeking the outward again, this kind of reflection leads to nothing. It is akin to contemplating one’s own navel!

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Shoshana]

bengeorge:

No, the real world is real. I don’t understand the quotey-quotes around the word “world”. The world, first of all, exists outside of us. Merton sounds like a Buddhist.

.

Unfortunetly, Merton did in the end dabble in Buddhism…much to my distress…

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Trelow:

I checked all four because I figure Merton would have as well.

Hi Trelow!

Jolly good point I thought…indeed I think Merton would have ticked each one!..but never insighted this until I read your post.

Also on your signature…when I read each of the points to be accomplished in each day…first they apply to myself!

Send regards…well put!..I really liked your comment on Merton!
Barb
Bethany South Australia Fri27.5.05 By Your Cross…
8.42pm

 

[Trelow]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi Trelow!

Jolly good point I thought…indeed I think Merton would have ticked each one!..but never insighted this until I read your post.

Also on your signature…when I read each of the points to be accomplished in each day…first they apply to myself!

Send regards…well put!..I really liked your comment on Merton!
Barb
Bethany South Australia Fri27.5.05 By Your Cross…
8.42pm

Aye, as insightful as he can be, he is quite the coo-coo.

I’m the biggest sinner I know. But, it doesn’t hurt to help another every now and then.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

DBT:

Hard to tell where he’s going with this from just one paragraph. But from *just this one quote *there appears, at least to me, a break from the 16th century mystics you mention. This just seems a tad to self-focused.

When was this book written? Was it written sometime after “New Seeds of Contemplation?” My take on that book was that he was trying to provide his own personal interpretation of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. This quote seems like he’s moved beyond their way of thinking.

Dave.

Hi Dave…

I think “Contemplation in a World of Action” was probably one of Merton’s last books before he died. I agree that one needs t o read t he whole book to get the kernel of what Merton is on about.

If you want to insight Merton on Prayer…I suggest one commences with On Opening The Bible and then read Contemplative Prayer for his understanding of The Dark Night of The Soul and the whole overview of spirituality and progress etc. and then finally the book from which I quoted above.

Well I be no mystic for sure…but I’ll have a go at responding to what you had to say. And forgive me if I ramble, time is very limited just now.

Mysticism is the soul’s union with God who is Ultimate Reality…therefore Merton turns to reality (Reality) seeking God…for reality in all its forms is an expression of Ultimate Reality or God. What Merton is saying is that our inner ground …our inner self where we receive outward and indeed inner realities ( one person loves fir trees…another hates them (their inner ground receives them differently) . One person is not afraid of anger …another is…the reception of felt emotions to each inner ground is different. Merton is saying that our inner ground and its reception of the various realities in and around us is valid and a valid aspect of Ultimate Reality.

Before we get in touch as it were with God in any sort of mystical union…the road is a via negativa…a gradual process of being disentangled from self . Now before that can happen the soul or person needs to know who indeed he/she is and this knowledge comes to us from our inner ground, as we ‘listen’ to it as it were.

Our great mystics reflected on God or Christ, Jesus, as ‘out there’ …Merton sees God, Christ, Jesus as mysteriously present in each inner ground (soul in Grace as we term it). Therefore to get in touch with The Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Jesus) we need respect and indeed make an investment in our own inner ground … whereas often we are asked not to experience something ‘religious’, ‘holy’ from our own inner ground and to be free to express it and have it received by the other as valid and no matter what it may be… and though perhaps different. Rather we are asked to accept someone else’s idea of what reality is about and force it on our inner ground, rather than ‘listening’ to our own inner ground…

“and we will come to you and make our abode with you” In light of these words of Jesus, where else can we find Him, but within and within as mysteriously Father, Son and Spirit.

The notion of “too much self” does not fit in with the words of The Lord. It is not The Lord who has said do not reflect upon oneself, but man. The Lord has told us “deny self and take up your cross and come follow me” …in order to deny self we need, indeed, to know who we are which flows from our inner ground. Gradually this self is transformed (changes and change = some sort of death to what was) and the inner ground begins and then grows to experience reality as Jesus would, for “I live now not I, but Christ lives in me”.

If The Lord is indeed present in the soul in Grace (as we term it) then any sort of effort to not self focus is indeed refusing to listen to the Voice of The Lord which is The Holy Sprit.

These are the matters that need the attention of spiritual theologians to nut out and present to us so that they indeed make sense because the spirituality we have inherited is a negative spirituality in many ways. The Spirit does not negate but enriches. Though initially this enriching may be experienced as negating…and a Dark Night of The Soul.

I do not have time to edit this … it comes to you as it flows from my pen.

Regards
Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_1.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_10_4.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_4_115.gif
Fri. 27.5.05 10.25pm

 

[DBT]

BarbaraTherese:

I think “Contemplation in a World of Action” was probably one of Merton’s last books before he died.

This actually tells me a lot . . . and confirms my initial impression of the quote in your first post.

I appreciate your thoughts . . . but the point I was trying to make is really pretty simple. I just don’t see Thomas Merton as one who inherited the mantle of the 16th century mystics like you say. Nor do I see much of a similarity with Therese.

Rather, I see him as more of a “spiritual godfather” to those drawn to the type of spirituality found in places like the centering prayer movement today. I think in many ways he foreshadowed that way of thinking.

Many people might say “well it’s all contemplation, so it’s all the same.” It’s not. To me there are huge differences lurking below the surface level appearances that some see. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I think “Seven Storey Mountain” is a wonderful book, but, in my opinion, things went down hill pretty fast after that. While I agree that “New Seeds of Contemplation” has some useful insights on St. John and St. Teresa . . . there are so many better works out there - again just my opinion.

With the later works, I just can’t get beyond a sense of self-absorbtion and, dare I say, narcissism. This is the radical break I see in him from the other mystics you mention. I just don’t think they could relate at all to the type of quote you provided in the first post.

Again all of this is just my opinion . . . so feel free to take it for what it’s worth

Dave.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi all…

Thanks for the thoughts on my post and thread…I feel somewhat like Daniel perhaps in the den of lions…which is absolutely and entirely a joke!

For me Merton is still the one who got me in touch with myself and to experience self as entirely valid, not matter where I happened or happen to be at. In Merton I found comprehension or overview of spirituality renewed and with deeper insight into St. John of The Cross, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Therese, as well as the other great spiritual classics: Introduction to The Devout Life and also Cloud of Unknowing to mention only two of the great writings that have come down to us through the centuries.

While the great classics were recomended to me to read and as something of a guide in my own spirituality at the time … I floundered with them. Comprehension not quite clicking into place. Until one day I picked up *On Opening The Bible *by Thomas Merton. Despite the fact it was recommended that I read the ‘ancient’ classics of spirituality… I kept going back to Scripture which was attracting me far more than the classics. Merton’s bookand only a small one *On Opening The Bible *opened to me Scripture at a new depth and with a sense of personal wonder and awe. Hence my appreciation of Thomas Merton. Certainly his book Contemplative Prayer
is full of quotations from St. T. of A. an dSt. J. of the C. and the great classics, including Fathers of The Church. I began to appreciate the classics wi th new insights I felt…it all began to make sense to me and thanks to Thomas Merton! I became able to ponder the classics I felt anyway with new insight.

I think disagreement is healthy…I think it indicates that possibly, possibly, the real truth is yet to be discovered - arrived at…because obviously The Holy Spirit (Grace) is with those who disagree with my comments as He(Grace) is with me! “in my Father’s House there are many mansions” - a beautiful quote from The Lord which is apt in this context.

Obviously we agree to differ…and while I cannot agree with some comments anyway…I will defend with my life the right to state them…and I’m sure its a case of vv!!!

Just in passing…centreing prayer has absolutely no attraction for me…other than as a good way to drop asleep!!! I think it was our Song of Joy, Teresa, who raised the point that Merton goes against pschology etc…rather I think he is in step with it for “every person is entitled to experience reality from their own ground of being”. I’m no expert for sure, but my brother is a psychologist and I studied psychology last year.

Teresa, there is only one claim we can make…I am a human being …the fact I am a student is not me…but my role. Who am I? I am a human being and yes that reality can only be inisighted through the other. The other as it were rests in my ground of being as either a positive or negative presence. My own inner ground cries to me…The Church at any cost…hence what The Church proclaims rests in my ground of being as Truth…no matter where my head or heart may be!

But all too few is my assertion get in touch with their own inner ground … there is a saying “you want truth, you cannot handle it”. It is my asserton that many even most are content to be puppets and have their strings pulled by their perception of something greater than themselves*** to create a false sense of security***. This is not an awareness from their inner ground…but an assertion of their mind seeking self in security. Rather I would assert: “work out your own salvation in fear and trembling”.

Mysticism in essence is the journey into the self to find that I am We…as it were. There self dissolves…ego…there is Us. For as Jesus has told us “how can you say you love God whom you cannot see, if you cannot love your neighbour whom you can”. As one grows in love of God…so it flows outwards to the other as the proclaimed function of God’s Love (loves ALL!) and the challenge He has given us is to love what we perceive as’negative’ (enemy)…no such thing! The key word is our fallible perception. Our attitude to! The greatest mystic and saint in the Catholic Church is The Lord and His Words the greatest…“listen you that have ears to hear”.

Regards, Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_4_115.gif
South Australia 28.5.05 7.53pm

 

[springbreeze]

Dear Barb

Hi there you. I hope you are enjoying the weekend. A truly beautiful post Barb!

Yes, these are immense psychological and philosophical concepts you are exploring here. I stated that Merton goes against the psychology and philoposhy is that to rely purely on this 'inner ’ ground to find reality because in respect of your statement ‘There is only one claim we can make, I am a human being’, I agree with you; I do not know I am a human being unless someone tells me, I do not know that red is red unless someone tells me. A child would have no perception of what the realities are unless they are defined to them by others (remembers the Sacred Scripture about leading a little one astray and having a millstone around the neck for doing that!), still the realities exist, they just are unable to define…you may like to read a book called ‘Ways of Seeing’ by John Berger, I had to study this book years ago. We have every perception of this world and the ‘self’ and are able to draw perceptions all by ourselves without the (name removed by moderator)ut of others, but to make sense of this world we need each other and most of all God. In this making ‘sense’ of ourselves and the world we rely on the perception and cultural perceptions of whole communities and individuals, those perceptions are possessing reality but some of those perceptions can be highly flawed, this is why we are called to deny self and ‘put on our Lord Jesus Christ’ because He is the Truth of all reality…He is all Truth and Proper perception.

I too have studied psychology, so I’m happy to meet someone else who is studying it

We are inter-dependant no matter how much we try and escape that notion, we rely on each other for the formation of ourselves and for that self to be transformed in Christ Jesus. Our core ‘self’ or that core personality is intextricably intertwinded in the entire self, the body, mind and spirit as a whole, it is impossible to seperate them out and study one adequately without it having equal and opposite effects on the other.

I also agree that we all perceive reality from our own perception or ‘ground of being’ but that cannot run contrary to absolute truths and if we are going to talk about truth then we must think about the Truth and Reality of Christ Jesus, no greater Truth is there than He. If this 'ground of being is left unchecked, it may well run contrary to Christ Jesus, the Truth and Reality, that is the danger of withdrawal purely into the ‘ground of being’ without exposure to the ‘exterior’. The only two people with an absolute fully formed ‘ground of being’ who are able to withdraw there and not be led astray are Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary.

In this, our own perception of the Truth Christ Jesus, this is where our own spirituality comes in and our own personal relationship with the Divine Lord and this perception is deeply rooted firstly in Him and secondly in the core personality or core ‘self’ which is to be transformed in Him.

We are constantly transformed in our very core, by external and internal factors and ultimately by Christ Jesus, by the Truine God.

The further thing to remember in psychology is that there is a line of majority, but there will always be people either side of that line, above and below it, this is why I think we need to keep exploring psychology in respect of the individual rather than trying to make a ‘one size fits all’, the unique nature of the human spirit, requires we do that and we can only do that personally for ourselves and the only Person who can achieve that within us is Christ Jesus, the Divine Psychologist and Healer. If we hand the ‘self’ over to Him we will see what the ‘self’ is truly meant to be, that will take Eternity to discover, only so much can be done in the mortal frame.

I would rather say that your ‘inner ground’ does not cry to you, but the Holy Spirit that resides within you and convicts this broken human inner personality to the Truth as He does for the whole of humanity.

Thank you Barb for this beautiful thread

Stay cool and stop smoking! (says me who is constantly ‘giving up’ the nasty habit!)

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

BarbaraTherese:

Thanks for the thoughts on my post and thread…I feel somewhat like Daniel perhaps in the den of lions…which is absolutely and entirely a joke!

Hi Barb -
Sorry you feel that way . . . I certainly didn’t mean to put you on the defensive. I apologize if I did.

For me Merton is still the one who got me in touch with myself

I’m glad you enjoy Merton and find benefit in him. It was not my intent to denegrate him . . . sorry if it came across that way. I just think you’re seeing that some of the things he says . . . particularily in his later works . . . tend to make him very controversial.

Keep up the good work
Dave.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

DBT:

Hi Barb -
Sorry you feel that way . . . I certainly didn’t mean to put you on the defensive. I apologize if I did.

I’m glad you enjoy Merton and find benefit in him. It was not my intent to denegrate him . . . sorry if it came across that way. I just think you’re seeing that some of the things he says . . . particularily in his later works . . . tend to make him very controversial.

Keep up the good work
Dave.

Hello there Dave…

The unfortunate thing, I think, about language, is t hat the language that the great mystics used, like St. T. of A and St. John of The Cross and also St. Therese is, in our day, the language of pious souls…and I do not mean to put sincere people down…not at all. The key word is ‘sincerity’…if one is sincere, then God sees that and that is sufficient for any person…or should be!

Today, the only people who use the sort of language of the mystics are indeed the pious…

“do not let your piety show” Jesus tells us…

also “the kingdom of Heaven is within you” …

pondering these words of The Lord…I find value in Thomas Merton and what he has to say about inner ground… f or indeed The Kingdom of God is within us…hence where do we turn to find The Lord but within…and that means inner ground parallel with our spirit or soul. Merton is merely using a psychological term adopted by our common tongue instead of soul or spirit. They are all exactly the same!!!

If we are going to reach others…we need to use language they commonly use and can insight the actual meaning.

The other thing to consider I think is that true science must always walk hand in hand with true theology. If they are ‘arguing’ than one or other other is incorrect. Nor can we presume that theology simply because it is theology is correct and everything else must be wrong!!!

Dave…thanks for the apology, but it was not necessary. Nothing sinful about defensiveness…and its only sin that worries me really!..tar anyway!

Regards, Barb
South Australia
4.6.05 Sat 3.32am
The Immaculate Heart of Mary…pray for us