Nailed through the hands

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I know of at least two samples of the earliest depictions of Jesus crucified after Christianity’s emancipation in the 4th century, both from 5th century Rome. One is an ivory casket, the other is a panel in a wooden door in the basilica of Santa Sabina. In both depictions, the nails in Jesus’ hands are clearly depicted, but there are no traces of nails on the feet (but then again, maybe the limitations of the medium have something to do with it: the artists may have simply found it difficult to carve nail heads there).



But after that, Christian artists all agreed in portraying Jesus’ feet nailed, one nail driven through each foot (often Jesus is shown standing on a footrest or a pedestal as well, particularly in Eastern icons), for a total of four nails. Which would continue to be the case until …


From the Rabula Gospels (ca. 586)

… the 12th century, when in the West a new artistic fad emerged. Jesus’ feet is now depicted as being pierced by a single nail: one foot is placed over the other and one nail is driven through both. It’s not exactly clear why Western artists suddenly shifted to showing just three nails, but one common explanation is that the symbolism of the number three may have something to do with it. (Another explanation claims that this was a side effect of Western artists starting to depict a crucified Jesus who is either clearly suffering horribly or stone-cold dead. Having Jesus’ feet placed on top of each other and Jesus’ body curving and drooping is more dramatic than the earlier, four-nail depictions, where at best He’s just standing stiff and erect.)

Not everybody liked this depiction at first (a 12th century Spanish-French bishop reacted in horror to “ill-shapen” images of the crucified Jesus “with one foot laid over the other, so that both are pierced by a single nail;” he claimed that such depictions “[strive] to annul or render doubtful men’s faith in the Holy Cross and the traditions of the sainted Fathers” ;)); however, by the 15th century, most Western crucified Jesuses were of the three-nail variety. (In the East, the older four-nails convention still remained the standard (it still does to this day), though a few Western-influenced icons do show just three nails.)

Now during the Counter-Reformation, there was a short-lived attempt by a segment of Spanish artists - under the instigation of painter and official censor for the Spanish Inquisition, Francisco Pacheco - to revive the four-nails depiction, which they argued was more authentic and more historically-accurate. They took as their basis, aside from earlier depictions and earlier writings, the visions of St. Bridget: Bridget in her visions saw Jesus’ feet nailed with two nails, with His feet crossed, left foot over right. Some artists faithfully followed her description, while others depicted four nails but did not have the feet crossed. (Diego Velazquez’s painting of the Christ on the Cross is of the latter type.)



(A side note about St. Bridget. A comparison of her visions with that of Blesseds Maria de Agreda and Catherine Emmerich would show that all three contradict each other on the details. In their respective visions, Agreda and Emmerich ‘saw’ Jesus’ feet pierced by a single nail, as was common artistic convention by their time, but the earlier Bridget ‘saw’ two nails used, as was common artistic convention during her time. This goes back to what Mintaka said earlier.)
 
I do not see God as a card dealer who won’t tell people what the rules are.WE have the bible and tons of other writings. Jesus himself confirmed we should follow the 10 commandments given to Moses but to always love God and love your neighbor.
If you’re referring to my sig:

It means that God’s ways are ineffable, cryptic. He doesn’t always explain why He does this or that or why He says this or that, or even why He doesn’t do this or that. That is the meaning of the quote in my sig. At least that’s how I interpret it. 😉

Look at Job. If you read carefully, you notice that God never directly answers Job’s questions. He doesn’t explain why Job suffers despite being righteous, nor does He respond to Job’s assertions that he (Job) is innocent, nor does He take on Job’s challenge for a courtroom confrontation of sorts. Instead He just tells Job something to the effect that ‘You’re a mortal human being, I’m God; my ways are not your ways’.
 
I read in the Barbet book that the “vogue” for depicting His feet crossed came about when artists began to show HIS head leaned to the side, rather than bowed centrally on the body.

With HIS head leaned to one side, the corpus would be balanced by bending one of the knees and crossing the feet, either on one or two nails.

The “pedestal” under HIS feet has no reference in history and seems to be an artistic convention.

ICXC NIKA
 
(Continued)

I know of at least two samples of the earliest depictions of Jesus crucified after Christianity’s emancipation in the 4th century, both from 5th century Rome. One is an ivory casket, the other is a panel in a wooden door in the basilica of Santa Sabina. In both depictions, the nails in Jesus’ hands are clearly depicted, but there are no traces of nails on the feet (but then again, maybe the limitations of the medium have something to do with it: the artists may have simply found it difficult to carve nail heads there).


But after that, Christian artists all agreed in portraying Jesus’ feet nailed, one nail driven through each foot (often Jesus is shown standing on a footrest or a pedestal as well, particularly in Eastern icons), for a total of four nails. Which would continue to be the case until …

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/images-art/rabbula-gospels-crucifixion.jpg
From the Rabula Gospels (ca. 586)

… the 12th century, when in the West a new artistic fad emerged. Jesus’ feet is now depicted as being pierced by a single nail: one foot is placed over the other and one nail is driven through both. It’s not exactly clear why Western artists suddenly shifted to showing just three nails, but one common explanation is that the symbolism of the number three may have something to do with it. (Another explanation claims that this was a side effect of Western artists starting to depict a crucified Jesus who is either clearly suffering horribly or stone-cold dead. Having Jesus’ feet placed on top of each other and Jesus’ body curving and drooping is more dramatic than the earlier, four-nail depictions, where at best He’s just standing stiff and erect.)

Not everybody liked this depiction at first (a 12th century Spanish-French bishop reacted in horror to “ill-shapen” images of the crucified Jesus “with one foot laid over the other, so that both are pierced by a single nail;” he claimed that such depictions “[strive] to annul or render doubtful men’s faith in the Holy Cross and the traditions of the sainted Fathers” ;)); however, by the 15th century, most Western crucified Jesuses were of the three-nail variety. (In the East, the older four-nails convention still remained the standard (it still does to this day), though a few Western-influenced icons do show just three nails.)

Now during the Counter-Reformation, there was a short-lived attempt by a segment of Spanish artists - under the instigation of painter and official censor for the Spanish Inquisition, Francisco Pacheco - to revive the four-nails depiction, which they argued was more authentic and more historically-accurate. They took as their basis, aside from earlier depictions and earlier writings, the visions of St. Bridget: Bridget in her visions saw Jesus’ feet nailed with two nails, with His feet crossed, left foot over right. Some artists faithfully followed her description, while others depicted four nails but did not have the feet crossed. (Diego Velazquez’s painting of the Christ on the Cross is of the latter type.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._crucificado.jpg/300px-Cristo_crucificado.jpg

(A side note about St. Bridget. A comparison of her visions with that of Blesseds Maria de Agreda and Catherine Emmerich would show that all three contradict each other on the details. In their respective visions, Agreda and Emmerich ‘saw’ Jesus’ feet pierced by a single nail, as was common artistic convention by their time, but the earlier Bridget ‘saw’ two nails used, as was common artistic convention during her time. This goes back to what Mintaka said earlier.)
none of these saints writings are infallible.They also all state different ages that the Blessed Virgin died. Catherine Emmerichs writings were not even considered in the canonization process either because someone else wrote them and she allegedly dictated it.

Mary of Agreda is still a venerable because some of her writings were also false and misleading. The canonization process was halted.\

The original post was trying to reconcile the wounds depicted in the majority of stigmatists as compared to what is seen on the Shroud of Turin.

I do not see a conflict because the Shroud was dated to between 1260 and 1390.It is most likely a work of art The bible clearly has Jesus showing his wounds to Thomas,and the wounds are in the hand.
 

The original post was trying to reconcile the wounds depicted in the majority of stigmatists as compared to what is seen on the Shroud of Turin.

I do not see a conflict because the Shroud was dated to between 1260 and 1390.It is most likely a work of art The bible clearly has Jesus showing his wounds to Thomas,and the wounds are in the hand.
According to highly unreliable carbon dating that is, which failed (because it can’t) to account for the accelerated carbon depletion of linen cloth. But the stains on the Shroud of Turin match those of the Sudarium of Oviedo (located in Northern Spain), which was (also, erroneously) carbon dated to the 7th Century, though it’s actual history in Spain can be traced back further. Note that a second cloth said to have been covering Jesus’ head is explicitly mentioned in John 20 (also worth noting, St. John was the only Apostle and Evangelist who was present with Christ at the crucifixion):

*6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. *

John 20:6-7New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

Great book on this topic:

amazon.com/Sacred-Blood-Image-Sudarium-Authenticity/dp/0970568207

Other sources:

shroud.com/guscin.htm

and

historicmysteries.com/the-sudarium-of-oviedo/

As for the hands vs. wrists: I’m inclined to believe that nails went through the palms, with additional support by rope, as the whole point of crucifixion was to humiliate the person and convey a message–suspending the body by nails or stakes through the wrists (or hand) without additional support, would likely result in dismemberment either way, and the body falling–which would compromise the effect of leaving the executed body on display to convey the message.

fwiw.
 
According to highly unreliable carbon dating that is, which failed (because it can’t) to account for the accelerated carbon depletion of linen cloth. But the stains on the Shroud of Turin match those of the Sudarium of Oviedo (located in Northern Spain), which was (also, erroneously) carbon dated to the 7th Century, though it’s actual history in Spain can be traced back further. Note that a second cloth said to have been covering Jesus’ head is explicitly mentioned in John 20 (also worth noting, St. John was the only Apostle and Evangelist who was present with Christ at the crucifixion):

6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself.

John 20:6-7New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

Great book on this topic:

amazon.com/Sacred-Blood-Image-Sudarium-Authenticity/dp/0970568207

Other sources:

shroud.com/guscin.htm

and

historicmysteries.com/the-sudarium-of-oviedo/

As for the hands vs. wrists: I’m inclined to believe that nails went through the palms, with additional support by rope, as the whole point of crucifixion was to humiliate the person and convey a message–suspending the body by nails or stakes through the wrists (or hand) without additional support, would likely result in dismemberment either way, and the body falling–which would compromise the effect of leaving the executed body on display to convey the message.

fwiw.
I am inclined to believe the Shroud is a pious artistic depiction based on the carbon dating and when it appeared in the written record. I also find it odd that no medeival saints ever mentioned it in their writings.

I concur that Jesus was crucified through the hand and not wrist. This is based on the bible though.
 
I read in the Barbet book that the “vogue” for depicting His feet crossed came about when artists began to show HIS head leaned to the side, rather than bowed centrally on the body.

With HIS head leaned to one side, the corpus would be balanced by bending one of the knees and crossing the feet, either on one or two nails.
Yep, that’s exactly what I’m getting at. Crossing the feet makes for a more dramatic, artistically balanced depiction when one depicts Jesus slouching.
The “pedestal” under HIS feet has no reference in history and seems to be an artistic convention.
That’s correct. Only the Alexamenos graffito out of the earliest crucifixion depictions seems to depict a footrest, but it is kind of mysterious that it would be our only real ancient source for this. (The Alexamenos graffito, the Pozzuoli graffito, and that carved gemstone all agree though in depicting what some of the Fathers called the ‘horn’ of the cross - what later folks called the ‘seat’ or sedile.)
 
Methinks you’re being unnecessarily harsh on past saints long dead
Perhaps it does appear harsh to you. The truth often is. But we need not concentrate on the matter of stigmata. We can instead move on to the subject of these saints/charlatans having running conversations with Jesus. This does NOT happen. A person I know received one sentence from Him nearly two years ago and has had nothing since. They do not have running conversations. What is most likely to happen is that the ‘mystic’, for want of a better word (and it is certainly a better word than the somewhat pious ‘saint’ moniker) becomes confused, agitated and depressed, and may well become suicidal at times. That is the reality, like it or not.

Some of the worst liars on this subject are those saints who spent their lives in a convent. Perhaps it was wishful thinking on their part. Perhaps they just felt lonely. Whatever the reason, their ‘conversations’ with Jesus Christ are total fabrications. Fact. Please believe me when I say this. These people are not worthy of your respect. They are merely pushing an agenda. Yet people who are having spiritual awakenings today are not reporting the same experience. They are often pushed away from organised religion, even if they desperately wish for that religion to be affirmed. So no, people do not have running conversations with Jesus, or God, or angels for that matter. And so I stand by my comments that many saints are liars only interested in preserving their memory.

Best wishes,
Padster
 
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