Nationalism/Individualism vs the Common Good/Community

[NoelFitz]

I am concerned with the apparent rise of individualism and nationalism, rather than the common good and community, in the world today, perhaps illustrated by the code in the US of ‘Make America Great Again’.

I fear the present world view may resemble the start of the 20th century, before the first world war, with the struggle for dominance of Britain and Germany and the fear in the west of China and Japan, with the emergence of the ‘yellow peril’ and the Boxer Revolution.

Also in the 1930s there was again a struggle for dominance between Britain and Germany, ‘Deutschland uber Alles’, which lead to the second world war.

At the present time are we seeing again the rise of nationalism, with trade war, protectionism and economic decline which may lead to war, resembling the start of the 20th century and the 1930s?

Do we need the community spirit, universal nature of the Church (one, holy Catholic and apostolic) with the communion of saints to flourish, rather than the individualism of Protestants, especially Puritans and Evangelicals, with the emphasis on decision and commitment and personal holiness?

I raise these points with respect for all and would like to see what others think.

 

[Annie]

I think that we have two ends and we are supposed to be in the middle.

I do not think we are seeing nationalism but a restoration of balance.

 

[TK421]

The development of societies is a bumpy upward slope with some downhills along the way but overall the movement is upward. The internet & social media was the next step to make the human race more globalized, so it’s encountering a wave of resistance, but it’s impossible to stop globalizing, so it will keep moving upward in the long-term.

I think a single world nation aligns very easily with the Gospel and God wants us to achieve that, but because of humanity’s fallen nature, it’s also easy for us to corrupt that aim for our own selfish purposes, i.e. the Tower of Babble. We need Divine help or we will fail. It’s a long road, at least from our mortal perspective.

Also, most everybody from the World Wars is gone, so the enormous evil of “us and them” is forgotten. It will probably need to be relearned the hard way in some form or another but only time will tell.

Peace.

 

[amcintosh]

Nationalism isn’t really on the rise, and elections in recent years in democratic states have proved that, in most cases, nationalist/neo-fascist parties aren’t that strong and/or unified to be a powerful force in developed democracies. Even Trump - who I don’t like at all - hasn’t been able to show that he’s a true nationalist, as most of his policy is aligned with the former GOP establishment, but just delivered with a firebrand populist’s rhetoric.

As much as I don’t want to argue that Americanism and Catholicism are two mutually exclusive concepts and systems of belief, the individual, humanist, Enlightenment-esque core of American life has always made it difficult for the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Christian ones, to flourish here. Protestantism, in all its scattered denominations, appealed to the American way of things much more than any denomination based around tradition and canon law, and I wouldn’t say that most Protestant denominations have any concept of the higher good, or common good, as Aquinas and the other great philosophers and theologians wrote about.

Even among the 20-25% of Americans who identify as Catholic, I wouldn’t say that many uphold the Church and Her teachings in practice, as CST makes it fairly clear that striving for wealth, power and material satisfaction is in contrast to the ultimate goals of human life: salvation, grace, and the truth. It shouldn’t be a radical, counter-cultural, and controversial statement to talk about preserving the family and preserving the honor and dignity of the person through Christ and through an ecclesiastical structure.

TL;DR: The core tenets that influenced what Americanism is today are much more aligned with Baptists and reformed denominations than Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

 

[amcintosh]

If I felt self-entitled enough to write whole essays on an online forum I would argue against the explicit separation of church and state and how everyone and their mom has misinterpreted that principle from the Federalist Papers, but I digress.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thank you so much for all the thoughtful and courteous replies.
I feel more positive after reading them.
I am grateful and pray that God may bless and keep us all safe, both now and in the future.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

I am concerned with the apparent rise of individualism and nationalism, rather than the common good and community, in the world today,

There’s always been a battle between the individual and the community. In the past the community had the upper hand but now the individual does to an extent. The community often stomps on the free will of the individual at times.

I think what we see is simply a backlash against the former “community first” times.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The US has always been very individualistic and this always seems to bother people in other countries who associate it with some kind of scary “nationalism”, or else just think it’s obnoxious and don’t like it.

For those of us in the US, rugged individualism = business as usual. Most of us don’t share the big concern, because individualism also means that any oppressive group usually gets opposed by a group of individuals who fight back against the oppression.

US people actually do a lot of looking out for the common good/ community at the grassroots level. We have to do this because our central government isn’t as strong as European nations, and doesn’t play nanny as much as other governments do. If one isn’t involved in a US community day to day, and just watches the news, they won’t see that.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, I’ve written this elsewhere. But ever since the Greek crisis there have been structural problems with the world economy. Mainly, because of cheap money ie low interest rates, zero interest rates and even negative interest rates Governments, Companies and Households are over leveraged.

I didn’t think it would be a pandemic that caused the market to crash and induce a recession. But the point is the fact a virus can cause so much damage to the world economy is a reflection of the problem and not the actual problem

On top of that, in America the response to throw over a trillion dollars at the problem while we already have a trillion in debt, is not going to solve the problem. I don’t mind Trump in office because I’m not a stakeholder, there is nothing he can do that will effect my life. But, it’s his typical style in business and government to go big. OK, this his legacy in action as he goes all in with a trillion in free money to businesses and households. I don’t think this will solve the problem, it’s like putting a band aid on someone suffering from cancer. The two don’t compute. The treatment doesn’t respond to the illness.

So, at this point I agree with you. I put it at a 40% that we are going to have not a WW2 situation but a WW1 situation. In that there is so much bickering and hostility between countries that although all petty have it’s roots in Economics, so that a random event like the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand will set off a world war. In other words, as Trump increases his rhetoric just like his administration causing so much annoyance leading to hostility in the international world, along with a global recession the tinder is there to spark a war.

So, what I tell people is vote State and Local. Stay close to your community and don’t be dependent on the Federal government for anything.

 

[TK421]

If I felt self-entitled enough to write whole essays on an online forum I would argue against the explicit separation of church and state and how everyone and their mom has misinterpreted that principle from the Federalist Papers, but I digress.

Yeah. It’s pretty clear it’s misinterpreted because the USA in the 1700s (or 1800s) didn’t actually have a separation of church & state in our contemporary understanding of it, at least not remotely in the same capacity. The Founding Fathers (who were very much flawed) still understood that the church wasn’t solely some kind of private social gathering. But yes, this is why there is intrinsically some amount of tension between American values and Catholic/Orthodox values, because they are not fully compatible and a person has to choose. Movements like Pentecostalism or Non-Denominationals have been able to thrive because that is the most easily compatible with the surrounding culture.

USA is more society-over-individual oriented today than it was 30 years ago though. Post-Eisenhower presidency USA when into a libertarian phase - largely brought on by understandable fears of communism - but since the 1990s that has cooled down.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks for all the replies.
It may be odd, but I would like to modify what I said previously about individualism vs the common good.

At present I am hugely moved by the tremendous amount of altruism in the world, where many people put their own lives at risk to look after those infected by Covid-19.

Our prime-minister made a very stirring speech in which he said that not all super-heroes ware capes, some wear scrubs and gowns.

Also may of us in different parts of the world feel the same concerns for others, as the virus knows no national boundaries.

I look at TV, including CNN, BBC World Service and Eurovision and all show similar concerns. I also listen to the radio, WNYC, WGBF, BBC etc and it is encouraging to hear the acknowledgement that the virus is a world problem calling on all of us together to combat, beginning with washing hands.

 

[NoelFitz]

If one isn’t involved in a US community day to day, and just watches the news, they won’t see that.

Individualism may lead to selfishness and ignoring injustices done to others. The US has almost 2.5 million incarcerated and in 2008 the US had about 25% of the world’s prisoners. It is heart-breaking to see the homeless in California, one of the richest parts of the world, living in terrible conditions. Leaving citizens without decent health care shows a lack of empathy and love of neighbor.

 

[NoelFitz]

USA is more society-over-individual oriented today than it was 30 years ago though. Post-Eisenhower presidency USA when into a libertarian phase - largely brought on by understandable fears of communism - but since the 1990s that has cooled down.

The change to a more society-over-individual policy is due to Roosevelt’s New Deal, rather than to Eisenhower’s presidency.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Way to generalize about a whole country based on what you see on the news. I could just as easily make the same types of negative statements about other countries.

Muting now, this isn’t a productive discussion as you seem to have a significant bias against an entire country, rather than seeing people as individuals and acknowledging the good in a society as well as all the negative things.

 

[TK421]

The change to a more society-over-individual policy is due to Roosevelt’s New Deal, rather than to Eisenhower’s presidency.

Yeah Roosevelt had a lot to do with it too, but Eisenhower was the last GOP president before the GOP became more libertarian.

Trumps words on nationalism are concerning but it seems so far that what he says and what he does are two very different things, which is a good thing. A different candidate might have tipped us into war with Iran, and just imagine, it would be going on at the same time as the coronavirus

 

[Annie]

It is heart-breaking to see the homeless in California, one of the richest parts of the world, living in terrible conditions.

As it happens, I have known for many years a man who is now homeless.

When he gets into a living situation, he behaves so badly that they have to kick him out (as did all his family and friends over the years).

But when he had heart disease, his government-funded health insurance paid for everything fully and they were able to fix his heart.

There are lots of programs out there to help homeless people but we can only do so much. The ones who want and can benefit from these programs do; the others go to places where the weather is good and the benefits plenty… like California.

 

[fide]

The Church teaches that human nature functions best in a hierarchy of social groupings, always limited by the principle of subsidiarity. The Catechism:

1882 Certain societies, such as the family and the state, correspond more directly to the nature of man; they are necessary to him. To promote the participation of the greatest number in the life of a society, the creation of voluntary associations and institutions must be encouraged “on both national and international levels, which relate to economic and social goals, to cultural and recreational activities, to sport, to various professions, and to political affairs.” This “socialization” also expresses the natural tendency for human beings to associate with one another for the sake of attaining objectives that exceed individual capacities. It develops the qualities of the person, especially the sense of initiative and responsibility, and helps guarantee his rights.

1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”<CA 48 # 4; cf. Pius XI, Quadragesimo anno I, 184-186>
…
1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

IN BRIEF
1890 There is a certain resemblance between the unity of the divine persons and the fraternity that men ought to establish among themselves.
1891 The human person needs life in society in order to develop in accordance with his nature. Certain societies, such as the family and the state, correspond more directly to the nature of man.
1892 “The human person . . . is and ought to be the principle, the subject, and the object of every social organization” (GS 25 # 1).
1893 Widespread participation in voluntary associations and institutions is to be encouraged.
1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies.
1895 Society ought to promote the exercise of virtue, not obstruct it. It should be animated by a just hierarchy of values.
1896 Where sin has perverted the social climate, it is necessary to call for the conversion of hearts and appeal to the grace of God. Charity urges just reforms. There is no solution to the social question apart from the Gospel (cf. CA 3, 5).