Nationalism

[EphelDuath]

Would you say that the stories of St. Joan of Arc and St. Nuno Álvares Pereira are evidence that God wants separate, independent nations? Otherwise, why else would he give miraculous aid to soldiers fighting against foreign invaders?

 

[Lycorth]

Would you say that the stories of St. Joan of Arc and St. Nuno Álvares Pereira are evidence that God wants separate, independent nations? Otherwise, why else would he give miraculous aid to soldiers fighting against foreign invaders?

I’d agree. We are not Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe patriotism is a sin. God knows we will form nations and certainly has never had issue with us loving and defending them.

Of course, the caveat is that we must place God first in our nation’s laws and culture. No support can be expected if we wish for a secularist nation wherein God has only a marginalized place at best. God will bless us but we must bless Him, first.

 

[ljubim]

I like your signature Lycorth

I’d say that “nationalism” would be unconditionally loving/serving a country. Only ok if it’s a good country we’re talking about.

Remember at Fatima, the Guardian Angel of Portugal came to the children. Just adding that countries have guardian angels too

 

[EphelDuath]

I’d say that “nationalism” would be unconditionally loving/serving a country. Only ok if it’s a good country we’re talking about.

Excuse me if I am incorrect, but I do believe that what you’re speaking of would be patriotism. Nationalism is the ideological belief that your nation should be independent and united; it can mean different things, of course. For the Italians it meant removing foreigners from controlling their nation and uniting under one government. For Scottish National Party it means seceding from the United Kingdom.

It was often associated with secularism/deism in the 19th century, but this was not always the case. The ultimate goal of nationalists was to simply end petty wars that resulted from the arbitrary rule of monarchs and to unite as one people. Whether that also means disestablishing religion, like it did for Garibaldi, or for maintaining a conservative social order like for Bismarck, is a complicated issue.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Would you say that the stories of St. Joan of Arc and St. Nuno Álvares Pereira are evidence that God wants separate, independent nations? Otherwise, why else would he give miraculous aid to soldiers fighting against foreign invaders?

No, I would not. First, why would God care? Second, favor from God should be due to one’s spirituality and holiness, not because of what political side you are on. The thinking that God chooses sides is very Old Testament, and not in keeping with the teaching of Jesus or how we come to understand our relationship with God.

 

[EphelDuath]

No, I would not. First, why would God care? Second, favor from God should be due to one’s spirituality and holiness, not because of what political side you are on. The thinking that God chooses sides is very Old Testament, and not in keeping with the teaching of Jesus or how we come to understand our relationship with God.

Well, I can tell that obviously God did care that France won the Hundred Years’ War, otherwise he wouldn’t have given them a commander as successful as St. Joan. She herself said, “Of the love or hatred God has for the English, I know nothing, but I do know that they will all be thrown out of France, except those who die there.”

 

[ljubim]

Excuse me if I am incorrect, but I do believe that what you’re speaking of would be patriotism. Nationalism is the ideological belief that your nation should be independent and united; it can mean different things, of course. For the Italians it meant removing foreigners from controlling their nation and uniting under one government. For Scottish National Party it means seceding from the United Kingdom.

It was often associated with secularism/deism in the 19th century, but this was not always the case. The ultimate goal of nationalists was to simply end petty wars that resulted from the arbitrary rule of monarchs and to unite as one people. Whether that also means disestablishing religion, like it did for Garibaldi, or for maintaining a conservative social order like for Bismarck, is a complicated issue.

Thanks

 

[chaunceygardner]

Well, I can tell that obviously God did care that France won the Hundred Years’ War, otherwise he wouldn’t have given them a commander as successful as St. Joan. She herself said, “Of the love or hatred God has for the English, I know nothing, but I do know that they will all be thrown out of France, except those who die there.”

“France” would have won in either case, since the war was fought between two royal families over which would take the French crown. Both sides were Catholic (this was prior to the Reformation), with one (the Plantagenets) a mixture of French and English who already had control of the northern parts of France.

The war didn’t end for another 22 years after Joan’s death, so if God wanted France to win, He took a long time to make it happen. And it was even longer before the other regions of France still under control of Dukes, such as Burgundy, were brought into the fold.

I would hesitate before claiming that God takes sides in battles and wars, or that He even favors wars, and all the death, destruction and misery they create.

 

[AlbertBall]

I would hesitate before claiming that God takes sides in battles and wars, or that He even favors wars, and all the death, destruction and misery they create.

I thought god loved all that stuff, is he not always jumping into wars and killing masses in the bible?

 

[chaunceygardner]

I thought god loved all that stuff, is he not always jumping into wars and killing masses in the bible?

That is what many people like to think. I suspect that we read that because a people or group wants to feel that God is on their side, or is directing them to murder and destroy their “enemy.” Jesus set the record straight a long time ago. Yet we still see it happening in our own time, unfortunately.

We have learned very little of real substance in the past 2,000 years.

 

[EphelDuath]

“France” would have won in either case, since the war was fought between two royal families over which would take the French crown. Both sides were Catholic (this was prior to the Reformation), with one (the Plantagenets) a mixture of French and English who already had control of the northern parts of France.

I’m well aware. My historical specialty would be western medieval Europe.

The war didn’t end for another 22 years after Joan’s death, so if God wanted France to win, He took a long time to make it happen. And it was even longer before the other regions of France still under control of Dukes, such as Burgundy, were brought into the fold.

Nevertheless the French would not have been victorious (and by this I mean, kept independence from the British Isles) had it not been for St. Joan.

I would hesitate before claiming that God takes sides in battles and wars, or that He even favors wars, and all the death, destruction and misery they create.

Aren’t people like St. Joan comparable to Joshua or David?

That is what many people like to think. I suspect that we read that because a people or group wants to feel that God is on their side, or is directing them to murder and destroy their “enemy.” Jesus set the record straight a long time ago. Yet we still see it happening in our own time, unfortunately.

For everything there is a time and place, my friend. If your implication is that the Old Testament is a forgery and Jesus was divinely inspired, well; Jesus seems to have had no objections to the Hebrew Bible! Excuse me if I misunderstand…

 

[Jvrlns]

I think God isn’t for or against nations, I think he respects people’s free will to organize themselves in a common territory, but to say that God favors some nations over others is illogical. What if God helped Joan of Arch to free France from the English because of the unjustices the English were commiting against the French and not because he cares about national boundaries?

 

[Lycorth]

If God favors a nation, it is because that nation truly submits to Him and places Him first in their lives. Religious nationalism, in that sense, is just and preferable; the only way to support one’s nation is to support the absolute Christianization of one’s nation and the persistence of that nation in the Faith.

It was why France was for so long considered the Daughter of the Church. She was thoroughly Catholic and supported the pope come hell and high water both.

For me, as an ethnic Pole, Poland was founded after the conversion of its tribes to the Faith. Catholicism is at the heart of being Polish - and, since virtually all European nations were formed after the conversions of their peoples to the faith (for the more effective administration of the Faith, precisely), Catholicism is at the heart of all nations.

Because of this, in regards to those of us who are European or descended from Europeans, faith and nation are inseparable. The only valid nationalism is that which defends Holy Mother Church and the right place of the Lord in our lives and in the national life as a whole.