Native American Question

[Jerusha]

There is no tendancy in most European nations, and most Europeans.

There is a significant problem in Denmark, and somewhat in Germany and other Scandinavian countries.

How can a couple hicks in the American backwaters create a tendancy in a race of hundreads of millions

I am not talking about that, although it is a relevant topic. The fact that it survived and prospered is certainly symptomatic. You brought it up.

 

[Hastrman]

This is misleading. I am sure that there are quite a few who claim to be Witches, however professing a pagan religion (even wicca) is not the same thing as Witchcraft.
Witchcraft is another skill set altogether.

But I do thank you again Hastrman for giving me your understanding of the difference between witches and (what I kew as Shamans) ( I appologise, I still do not know what to call them in your culture).

Not my culture; I’m white, I just live very near the biggest Indian reservation in America, that of the Navajo–I apologize for any misunderstanding. But the Navajo call them Hataalii; the usual translation is “singer”.

Technically Shaman refers to Asian religious figures, like Korean Manshin (aka Mudang, Sesseumu, Naerim-saram).

 

[Hastrman]

There is a significant problem in Denmark, and somewhat in Germany and other Scandinavian countries.

I am not talking about that, although it is a relevant topic. The fact that it survived and prospered is certainly symptomatic. You brought it up.

Are you referring to the appropriation of Native American traditions (generally in dumbed-down form) by whites, who call themselves neopagans/shamans/New Agers, etc.?

Because the Native Americans where I live hate that.

 

[Jerusha]

Are you referring to the appropriation of Native American traditions (generally in dumbed-down form) by whites, who call themselves neopagans/shamans/New Agers, etc.?

EXACTLY!!!

I am not talking about that, although it is a relevant topic. The fact that it survived and prospered is certainly symptomatic. You brought it up.

My internet reputation is primarily “anti-Mormon” . Mormonism is another manifestation of the same problem.

 

[Hastrman]

My internet reputation is primarily “anti-Mormon” . Mormonism is another manifestation of the same problem.

Not sure I understand; do you mean the Mormon teaching that Native Americans are the Lost Tribes of Israel creates problems? I’d never heard of that, although I did know they were rather active in preaching on the reservations.

 

[Jerusha]

There are different kinds of Mormons.

Check your PM’s for a link-- I have posted that so many times in so many places–

 

[KarenNC]

Are you referring to the appropriation of Native American traditions (generally in dumbed-down form) by whites, who call themselves neopagans/shamans/New Agers, etc.?

Because the Native Americans where I live hate that.

Unfortunately, it seems from what I have read that the modern myth of a singular “Native American religion” (which never existed) has caused extensive (and possibly irreparable in some ways) harm to the actual religious heritage of many if not most Native American cultures.

Apart from the actual charlatans who are promoting their version for their own profit, I am mostly saddened by the irony that so many folks who are trying in good faith to honor what they are taught are “Native American religious practices” are actually harming the very source of the traditions that are being mishmashed together.

I think a lot of it comes down to the lure of the exotic and then trying to make the “exotic” fit one’s own preconceived mold rather than working to understand its own reality.

 

[Jerusha]

 

[Hastrman]

Unfortunately, it seems from what I have read that the modern myth of a singular “Native American religion” (which never existed) has caused extensive (and possibly irreparable in some ways) harm to the actual religious heritage of many if not most Native American cultures.

Apart from the actual charlatans who are promoting their version for their own profit, I am mostly saddened by the irony that so many folks who are trying in good faith to honor what they are taught are “Native American religious practices” are actually harming the very source of the traditions that are being mishmashed together.

I think a lot of it comes down to the lure of the exotic and then trying to make the “exotic” fit one’s own preconceived mold rather than working to understand its own reality.

Yes, I agree, except that I wouldn’t say it’s harmed Native Americans, so much as it’s harmed others’ ability to understand them. We’ve gone from vilifying them to idealizing them, and in both cases forgotten we’re dealing with humans.

You’ll rarely hear about all the wars the various tribes had, for instance. The Sioux fought the Ojibwa fought the Iroquois fought the Hurons…etc. The Hopi word for Navajo means “they crush heads with hammers”. The Navajo word for the ruins of the Anasazi, a Pueblo group that went extinct around the thirteenth century, literally means “cities of dead enemies.” But no, there was nothing but peace and painting with all the colors of the wind; North America was a continent magically free of war, unlike anywhere else humans have ever lived.

 

[KarenNC]

Yes, I agree, except that I wouldn’t say it’s harmed Native Americans, so much as it’s harmed others’ ability to understand them. We’ve gone from vilifying them to idealizing them, and in both cases forgotten we’re dealing with humans.

What I meant by harm is that I have heard several Native Americans from different tribes say that some of their young people are starting to buy into the modern idealized Native American mythos being propagated and losing their own tribal histories, cultures and religions. They are beginning to believe that the modern myth is the reality. Perhaps this is more of an issue in some areas than others.

I know that someone with whom I correspond was trying to do some academic research into the actual early practices of the tribe local to his area in Massachusetts, but he could get nothing beyond the same homogenized “Native American” mythos, even from those tribal members he talked with. Now it may be that they were just putting him off with what they thought he expected to get him to go away and keep their private rituals private, but I’m not sure.

North America was a continent magically free of war, unlike anywhere else humans have ever lived.

Didn’t you get the memo? Neolithic Europe was just like that, and matriarchal to boot . I believe that the peace-loving, matriarchal, Goddess worshipping pan-European Neolithic culture is just as much a myth (and just as much a difficulty in trying to actually understand what we can of the period) as a pan-North American peace-filled idealized Native American religion.

 

[Jerusha]

They are beginning to believe that the modern myth is the reality. Perhaps this is more of an issue in some areas than others.

It is a real brain-twister when Native Americans get involved in the pseudo-NA religious things. If white Mormons are wannabe Indians, then are Indian Mormons wannabe Jews–or Phoenicians, or whatever bill of goods they have been sold? They only get sucked into it because of shame.

 

[Br_Joshua_Seidl]

Shaman is a Russian term-- American Indians reject it-- even though it is used among anthropologists.

A witch is a witch is a witch. A negative term. I guess some exist.

The term medicineman, or medicine woman is used. Generally they maintain a low profile because of religious persecution and the tendency of white people to steal and pervert traditions.

Pardom my intrussion, I think there is a misunderstanding of what is meant by “to steal and pervert traditions.” This is a big topic in parts of what is dubbed “Indian Country,” but is not easily understood by many if not most folks who do not discuss elements of somethng called “cultural slavery, or institutionalized racism.”

When I hear of stealing and perverting Indigenous culture, this is often related to how the more visual trapings of Native Culture is immitated or misinterpreted and used by non-Natives.

The term “stealing & perverting Native Culture” is not nessesarily used to insult anyone. It might be the misuse of Sacred Traditional Imagery used as a Sport Team logo or racial imaged mascot. It becomes “insititutionalized” in that the modern users are far removed from the original actions and have accpted that thier use of these things is acceptable Christian or general social behavior.

The red eagle feather on the fictional Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland proffessionaly paid baseball team is used in a way that terrible insults all Military veterans, but particularly those who died for our country. My guess is that 98% of those in love with that mascot or logo do not know what an eagle feather painted red means.

They have stolen the cultural symbol and ceremony, and they did pervert its use. However, this is done out of ignorance and because a few generations have grown up to think this is OK.

So - the phrase, “to steal or pervert,” is simply a social scientific term – not nessesarily a pointed remark to give negative or insulting accussation.

 

[Bro_Joshua]

My point was that Shaman for as much as I know it, was used for the Spiritual leader, medicine man, healer, prophet, however I read another post which referred to a witch as a Skinwearer. In a negative connotation,
I was wondering if there are any Native Americans on the board who would be able to tell me the name or title of the first and how it differs from the second.

I am Bro. Joshua. You asked if there are any Native americans on board who can answer. Ja, I can help you out on that one. I am Anishinabe Ojibwe, Deer Clan. I think some of the ansers are pretty good that I see. I didn’t read all of them.
Shaman is a term rising out of Siberia Russia. There are many terms for Medicine Elders among the more than 550 First Nations of North America. Midi or Midiwin is a Medicine Society found among many Anishinabe Groups (Ojibwe, Potawatomi & Odawa - Ottowah). The word(s) for Medicine and Sacred are the same. Members of the Midiwin are highly trained and educated. The first level (of 4 or 7 levels depending on the system) is equal to a PHD. They progress to higher learning from that point. In my oppinion, the average Midiwin person is a theologian and more, besides being a healer and religious leader, guide or teacher.
The word Shaman is often used. I have no strong opposition to the term, but it can be a misleading term.
Like I said, I like a number of the responces given. I don’t want to turn this into a Midiwin forum – so please, any deeper or more involved discussions should be handled via private messaging. I don’t mind answering a few general inquires here.

 

[Bro_Joshua]

1/8 Winnebago, 1/8 Sac& Fox

I ask with polite intentions: What is 1/8th? Blood quantum inquiries can get sticky in a forum. Indigenous of America are the only racial groups required to report blood quantum for certian legal purposes. A cousin told a friend he was part Native. Afterwards, I asked him what part was Native? A leg, top, front, back? The 1/8th is an OK responce, But, I think it is also fine to say Winnebago, Sac and Fox without the precentage. I think it is also Ok for those of European or other heritages to name the various countries of their ancestors without listing percentages.

This is not a dig at your responce. The law probably says at 1/8that you can no longer be related to your ancestors and other relatives, but that is man made law.