Natural and Supernatural interaction

[STT]

Lets define the properties of matter as Z={X,Y} where X are the properties of natural state and Y are the properties of Supernatural state (or hidden properties). Lets define the force/interaction between these two state of matter as Fzz={Fxx,Fxy,Fyx,Fyy} where Fij denotes the interaction between the states of i and j where the state of i causes a force Fij on the state j. Generally Fij=/=-Fji. Now lets the properties of matter are locally adjusted such that Fxy=0. This means that Natural state cannot cause any force on Supernatural state but not vice verse. We can assume that Fyx=0 which means that Supernatural state cannot cause any force on Natural state but not vice versa. Two states are completely independent when Fxy=Fyx=0.

Think of Angels when they can hear us but we can experience them. This means that Fyx=0 and Fxy=/=0. We cannot do the opposite because we don’t know how to set Fxy=0 and Fyx=/=0. Perhaps that is impossible too.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Lets define the properties of matter as Z={X,Y} where X are the properties of natural state and Y are the properties of Supernatural state (or hidden properties). Lets define the force/interaction between these two state of matter as Fzz={Fxx,Fxy,Fyx,Fyy} where Fij denotes the interaction between the states of i and j where the state of i causes a force Fij on the state j. Generally Fij=/=-Fji. Now lets the properties of matter are locally adjusted such that Fxy=0. This means that Natural state cannot cause any force on Supernatural state but not vice verse. We can assume that Fyx=0 which means that Supernatural state cannot cause any force on Natural state but not vice versa. Two states are completely independent when Fxy=Fyx=0.

Think of Angels when they can hear us but we can experience them. This means that Fyx=0 and Fxy=/=0. We cannot do the opposite because we don’t know how to set Fxy=0 and Fyx=/=0. Perhaps that is impossible too.

Do you think, truth seeker, that your symbols will tell you more than what you are able to put in them?

 

[STT]

Do you think, truth seeker, that your symbols will tell you more than what you are able to put in them?

I don’t know. Do you have any other idea to put in?

 

[Karen107]

Lets define the properties of matter as Z={X,Y} where X are the properties of natural state and Y are the properties of Supernatural state (or hidden properties). Lets define the force/interaction between these two state of matter as Fzz={Fxx,Fxy,Fyx,Fyy} where Fij denotes the interaction between the states of i and j where the state of i causes a force Fij on the state j. Generally Fij=/=-Fji. Now lets the properties of matter are locally adjusted such that Fxy=0. This means that Natural state cannot cause any force on Supernatural state but not vice verse. We can assume that Fyx=0 which means that Supernatural state cannot cause any force on Natural state but not vice versa. Two states are completely independent when Fxy=Fyx=0.

Think of Angels when they can hear us but we can experience them. This means that Fyx=0 and Fxy=/=0. We cannot do the opposite because we don’t know how to set Fxy=0 and Fyx=/=0. Perhaps that is impossible too.

whoo that looks like a question for a mathematician not about the origins of our beginning in our infinite God…

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You assume the supernatural is made of matter that can decay to dust. As we know from Genesis Adam was made from dust, by God. We dont know how the Angels were created but agree they are supernatural

God guide you on your journey home.

 

[STT]

You assume the supernatural is made of matter that can decay to dust. As we know from Genesis Adam was made from dust, by God. We dont know how the Angels were created but agree they are supernatural

God guide you on your journey home.

By matter I mean the stuff that a being or thing is made of. Anything has to have a form which is impossible without matter.

 

[dmar198]

Lets define the properties of matter as Z={X,Y} where X are the properties of natural state and Y are the properties of Supernatural state (or hidden properties).

Sounds good.

Lets define the force/interaction between these two state of matter as Fzz={Fxx,Fxy,Fyx,Fyy}

At first blush, I think there may be a problem with this, but there also might not be. It certainly could cause problems if the term force is not defined properly. The concept of force that we have in our experience is based on natural forces. This concept may be inapplicable to the spiritual world. On the other hand, if it is inapplicable, that wouldn’t automatically invalidate the equation you just gave. If our concept of force is inapplicable to the spiritual world, then we could just set Fy to zero. A potential consequence is that doing this could drastically reduce the usability of your equation.

Fij denotes the interaction between the states of i and j where the state of i causes a force Fij on the state j.

Sounds good.

Generally Fij=/=-Fji.

I’m with you so far, I think. And so far, this is my favorite sentence in your post. Translated, it means the force of one thing on another is not the same thing as its opposite. It’s a true statement even outside this particular context.

Now lets [suppose] the properties of matter are locally adjusted such that Fxy=0. This means that Natural state cannot cause any force on Supernatural state but not vice verse.

This seems at least questionable. It seems possible for some natural things, such as people, to affect spiritual things, such as angels.

We can assume that Fyx=0 which means that Supernatural state cannot cause any force on Natural state but not vice versa.

This seems like a questionable assumption, if I am understanding it correctly. It seems that angels can cause forces on natural things, such as plants and animals.

Two states are completely independent when Fxy=Fyx=0.

That seems reasonable.

Think of Angels when they can hear us but we can experience them.

I think you mean cannot, right?

This means that Fyx=0 and Fxy=/=0.

Only given your prior assumptions, at least one of which is questionable.

We cannot do the opposite because we don’t know how to set Fxy=0 and Fyx=/=0. Perhaps that is impossible too.

I’m not sure what you mean by these two sentences. Do you mean we cannot interact with angels?

By matter I mean the stuff that a being or thing is made of. Anything has to have a form which is impossible without matter.

I think it is possible for a thing to exist without form. I think you are saying that is impossible. Why?

Also, I think there is a potential problem with your definition of matter. It seems possible for something to exist without being made of anything more basic than itself. For example, take matter itself. If the definition of “matter” is “the stuff that a thing is made of,” then the stuff that matter is made of seems like it must be matter. And in that case, we have identified something that is not made of anything more basic than itself. It is as basic as you can get. In that case, it seems circular to ask what matter is made of. Matter is made of matter is made of matter, and it’s matter all the way down.

Well, if one thing can be like that, why not another? If matter can be basic in this sense, why not spirit? Anyway, those are some of my initial thoughts. Please let me know what you think.

 

[STT]

Sounds good.

Good.

At first blush, I think there may be a problem with this, but there also might not be. It certainly could cause problems if the term force is not defined properly. The concept of force that we have in our experience is based on natural forces. This concept may be inapplicable to the spiritual world. On the other hand, if it is inapplicable, that wouldn’t automatically invalidate the equation you just gave. If our concept of force is inapplicable to the spiritual world, then we could just set Fy to zero. A potential consequence is that doing this could drastically reduce the usability of your equation.

I don’t think that we can set Fyy=0 because otherwise spiritual beings cannot interact with each other.

Sounds good.

Good.

I’m with you so far, I think. And so far, this is my favorite sentence in your post. Translated, it means the force of one thing on another is not the same thing as its opposite. It’s a true statement even outside this particular context.

Good.

This seems at least questionable. It seems possible for some natural things, such as people, to affect spiritual things, such as angels.

We are just discussing a scenario here to illustrate different outcome. I agree with you that this term should not be equated to zero if we could affect Angels.

This seems like a questionable assumption, if I am understanding it correctly. It seems that angels can cause forces on natural things, such as plants and animals.

You understood this correctly but we are just discussing a different scenario. Moreover This term could be set to zero by God so Angels in principle could not eventually affect our reality.

That seems reasonable.

Good.

I think you mean cannot, right?

Yes. That was a mistype.

Only given your prior assumptions, at least one of which is questionable.

I think it is reasonable. You need to have Fyx=0 so we could not experience Angels otherwise we could observe some deviation in natural force, Fxx, meaning that we can experience Angels. Fxy=/=0 so we could affect Angels, in this case they could hear or see us for example.

I’m not sure what you mean by these two sentences. Do you mean we cannot interact with angels?

Actually you don’t need to set Fxy=0. If that is case then Angels cannot experience us. We need to minimally have Fyx=/=0 in order to experience Angels.

 

[dmar198]

I don’t think that we can set Fyy=0 because otherwise spiritual beings cannot interact with each other.

I infer (hopefully correctly) that your definition of “interact” requires the use of force. To me, that is questionable, but this seems to be at least partly a question of mere words. Gadzooks, words are hard sometimes.

We are just discussing a scenario here to illustrate different outcome. I agree with you that this term should not be equated to zero if we could affect Angels.

Then it seems to me that fxy and fyx are only equal to zero in certain circumstances. Is that accurate? Which ones?

You understood this correctly but we are just discussing a different scenario. Moreover This term could be set to zero by God so Angels in principle could not eventually affect our reality.

He could. But the fact is that angels can affect our reality, and I’m not aware of a circumstance where they can’t.

You need to have Fyx=0 so we could not experience Angels otherwise we could observe some deviation in natural force, Fxx, meaning that we can experience Angels.

I think your math is off here. If fyx=/=0, it seems to follow directly that people can sometimes experience angels. I don’t see why we should be so careful to avoid that, and it does not seem to mathematically imply that natural forces would be any different.

Fxy=/=0 so we could affect Angels, in this case they could hear or see us for example.

I agree that they can see and hear us. It does not seem to follow that Fxy=/=0.

Actually you don’t need to set Fxy=0. If that is case then Angels cannot experience us. We need to minimally have Fyx=/=0 in order to experience Angels.

Only if interactions between spirit and matter require force.

 

[inocente]

Lets define the properties of matter as Z={X,Y} where X are the properties of natural state and Y are the properties of Supernatural state (or hidden properties). Lets define the force/interaction between these two state of matter as Fzz={Fxx,Fxy,Fyx,Fyy} where Fij denotes the interaction between the states of i and j where the state of i causes a force Fij on the state j. Generally Fij=/=-Fji. Now lets the properties of matter are locally adjusted such that Fxy=0. This means that Natural state cannot cause any force on Supernatural state but not vice verse. We can assume that Fyx=0 which means that Supernatural state cannot cause any force on Natural state but not vice versa. Two states are completely independent when Fxy=Fyx=0.

Think of Angels when they can hear us but we can experience them. This means that Fyx=0 and Fxy=/=0. We cannot do the opposite because we don’t know how to set Fxy=0 and Fyx=/=0. Perhaps that is impossible too.

A guy named Bahman used to post this kind of stuff. I bet him he wouldn’t last five minutes on a physics forum. So he joined physicsforums.com, started a thread, and the moderator deleted it immediately for not meeting their standards. Laughed so hard I almost wet myself.

I’ll give you the same challenge. But first, it’s pseudoscience unless you have an experiment to test it, and if it breaks conservation of energy, as it seems it must, then it’s wrong anyway.

 

[STT]

I infer (hopefully correctly) that your definition of “interact” requires the use of force. To me, that is questionable, but this seems to be at least partly a question of mere words. Gadzooks, words are hard sometimes.

Good.

Then it seems to me that fxy and fyx are only equal to zero in certain circumstances. Is that accurate? Which ones?

Yes, Fxy and Fyx are not zero in certain circumstances depending whether we only affect Angels (Fxy=/=0 and Fyx=0) or opposite.

He could. But the fact is that angels can affect our reality, and I’m not aware of a circumstance where they can’t.

Yes.

I think your math is off here. If fyx=/=0, it seems to follow directly that people can sometimes experience angels. I don’t see why we should be so careful to avoid that, and it does not seem to mathematically imply that natural forces would be any different.

I was talking about something else. You are of course correct on your observation that in order to observe Angels we need Fyx=/=0. This however affect our reality which means that we could see a deviation in laws of nature, Fxx.

I agree that they can see and hear us. It does not seem to follow that Fxy=/=0.

We should affect them in order that they could see and hear us which means that Fxy=/=0.

Only if interactions between spirit and matter require force.

Of course it does need force.

 

[STT]

A guy named Bahman used to post this kind of stuff. I bet him he wouldn’t last five minutes on a physics forum. So he joined physicsforums.com, started a thread, and the moderator deleted it immediately for not meeting their standards. Laughed so hard I almost wet myself.

What was his idea?

I’ll give you the same challenge. But first, it’s pseudoscience unless you have an experiment to test it, and if it breaks conservation of energy, as it seems it must, then it’s wrong anyway.

Why I should follow your challenge? Are you a physicist? If not how do you know that what is provided breaks conservation of energy. Suppose it does so. Couldn’t God or Angel change laws of nature locally?

 

[Wesrock]

Why is matter being given a supernatural state component?

Or are we must taking that as a given and debating the math from there?

 

[STT]

Why is matter being given a supernatural state component?

I have at least three reasons for this: (1) To allow the interaction between what we call supernatural and natural, (2) To allow the the continuity in state of life after death and (3) To have a minimal consistent model of reality, only one sort matter instead of several such as physical matter, soul, etc…

Or are we must taking that as a given and debating the math from there?

No, there is no must. I haven’t seen any model for interaction between natural and supernatural beings.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

I don’t know. Do you have any other idea to put in?

May be!: if you or anybody else has certain thoughts concerning the supernatural, and if you are right when you say that everything is matter, and also when you say that thoughts are just certain configurations of matter produced by physicochemical interactions, then those thoughts must have been produced by the supernatural. How else could they have happened? Do you think that “natural” matter can produce by itself something “supernatural”? Or do you think that thoughts concerning the “supernatural” are “natural”?

 

[STT]

May be!: if you or anybody else has certain thoughts concerning the supernatural, and if you are right when you say that everything is matter, and also when you say that thoughts are just certain configurations of matter produced by physicochemical interactions, then those thoughts must have been produced by the supernatural.

If we agree that everything is matter then thoughts are generally the result of form and motion of matter.

How else could they have happened?

Human thoughts are manifestation of form and motion of matter too. It is just our differences on the surface that force us to divide things into categories, natural or supernatural. Things underneath are simply made of matter no matter if we are talking about Human or Angels. The difference on the surface is the result of dealing with specific amount of properties of matter.

Do you think that “natural” matter can produce by itself something “supernatural”?

I think so. We just need to learn how to set Fxy=/=0. This simply means that we can affect supernatural realm. Fxy=Fyx=0 in most of the case because either God or supernatural beings set them to zero so we don’t directly have access to supernatural realm and vice versa (unless the doors open to a person, having vision for example, which means that Fyx=/=0 locally for that person).

Or do you think that thoughts concerning the “supernatural” are “natural”?

Thoughts are generally manifestation of form and motion of matter. We don’t have natural or supernatural thoughts. I think it is important to make this assumption since otherwise a person loses His/Her identity upon death. That is true because identity is manifestation of form of matter. Things only change on the surface, aging, death etc.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

If we agree that everything is matter then thoughts are generally the result of form and motion of matter.

Human thoughts are manifestation of form and motion of matter too. It is just our differences on the surface that force us to divide things into categories, natural or supernatural. Things underneath are simply made of matter no matter if we are talking about Human or Angels. The difference on the surface is the result of dealing with specific amount of properties of matter.

I think so. We just need to learn how to set Fxy=/=0. This simply means that we can affect supernatural realm. Fxy=Fyx=0 in most of the case because either God or supernatural beings set them to zero so we don’t directly have access to supernatural realm and vice versa (unless the doors open to a person, having vision for example, which means that Fyx=/=0 locally for that person).

Thoughts are generally manifestation of form and motion of matter. We don’t have natural or supernatural thoughts. I think it is important to make this assumption since otherwise a person loses His/Her identity upon death. That is true because identity is manifestation of form of matter. Things only change on the surface, aging, death etc.

In terms of movements and shapes, what does it mean to you that your statement “We don’t have natural or supernatural thoughts” is true?

 

[Roseeurekacross]

By matter I mean the stuff that a being or thing is made of. Anything has to have a form which is impossible without matter.

What is your hypothesis that Angelic beings are made of matter or any substance quantifiable?

This reminds me of the scam selling an atom smasher to define and see the soul .

 

[STT]

In terms of movements and shapes, what does it mean to you that your statement “We don’t have natural or supernatural thoughts” is true?

It means that thoughts are solely the result of form and motion of matter. Natural and supernatural are only divisions of beings in term of properties of matter.

 

[STT]

What is your hypothesis that Angelic beings are made of matter or any substance quantifiable?

This reminds me of the scam selling an atom smasher to define and see the soul.

They think, they communicate with each other and us, etc.