Natural Law

  • Thread starter Thread starter srgibbons
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

srgibbons

Guest
Hello!

My 28-year old son came back to the Church almost two years ago. He is pursuing a PhD in English literature. He reads constantly. He has trouble with understanding the Natural Law as it applies to Church teaching. (He has read Thomas Aquinas.) I am looking for something for him to read–possibly contemporary–on that subject . Would the Pope’s Theology of the Body be a good source? He has trouble with the issue of homosexuality. His fiancee, a recent convert, grew up in a non-religious culture in So. California, was educated by former nuns, attended Scripps College. They have friends who are “gay.” The issue is probably as much or more hers than his. What can I suggest at a fairly intellectual level for them to read?
 
I’d recommend The Clash of Orthodoxies: Law, Religion and Morality in Crisis by Robert P. George.

Click Here

Book Description (from Amazon.com)
“In The Clash of Orthodoxies: Law, Religion, and Morality in Crisis, Robert George tackles the issues at the heart of the contemporary conflict of worldviews. Secular liberals typically suppose that their positions on morally charged issues of public policy are the fruit of pure reason, while those of their morally conservative opponents reflect an irrational religious faith. George shows that this supposition is wrong on both counts. Challenging liberalism’s claim to represent the triumph of reason, George argues that on controversial issues like abortion, euthanasia, same-sex unions, civil rights and liberties, and the place of religion in public life, traditional Judaeo-Christian beliefs are rationally superior to secular liberal alternatives. The Clash of Orthodoxies will shock liberals out of an unwarranted complacency and provide powerful ammunition for embattled defenders of traditional morality.”
 
He might consider reading “Fifty Questions on Natural Law” by Charles E. Rice
 
Interesting thread topic.

Maybe somebody could translate natural law to us non-academics. I have a bit of trouble accepting natural law ideas. First of all, how do we know what they are? Second, how could people in B.C. times understand natural law.

To be specific, consider some of the pelvic natural laws. why is the “purpose” of human sexuality soley the procreation of life? That’s probably the last thing on people’s minds.

A lot of Catholics stumble on this “law” and it would not be a waste of time for somebody to explain it. And, recall, a lot of non-Catholic people might think that a natural law is something like, well, gravity.
 
A book I’d recommend, although not pertaining to natural law per say, is Beyond Gay: beyondgay.com
It is very enlightening.

Here’s a link to an article I just read from the Vatican News Service talking about natural law and the family. It mentions homosexuality and the other threats to the family structure:
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=58060
 
40.png
srgibbons:
Hello!

My 28-year old son came back to the Church almost two years ago. He is pursuing a PhD in English literature. He reads constantly. He has trouble with understanding the Natural Law as it applies to Church teaching.
Click to expand...
Definitely get him a copy of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis also is an excellent book for anyone struggling with the Natural Law, but unlike Mere Christianity, it isn’t written specifically to show the connection between the Natural Law and Christianity. The Abolition of Man shows how the unchanging truths knowable through the Natural Law are expressed in different cultures.

Both books are still in print, but I can usually find both books in used bookstores for a couple of dollars.
 
40.png
BayCityRickL:
Interesting thread topic.

Maybe somebody could translate natural law to us non-academics. I have a bit of trouble accepting natural law ideas. First of all, how do we know what they are? Second, how could people in B.C. times understand natural law.

To be specific, consider some of the pelvic natural laws. why is the “purpose” of human sexuality soley the procreation of life? That’s probably the last thing on people’s minds.

A lot of Catholics stumble on this “law” and it would not be a waste of time for somebody to explain it. And, recall, a lot of non-Catholic people might think that a natural law is something like, well, gravity.
Click to expand...
Natural law is the law of human conduct which is discovered by human reason, reflecting on human nature. It is independent of the law God has revealed in Scripture. But both are in harmony, since both come from God.

The Romans understood natural law before Christianity. It is not necessary to be a Christian or Jew to realize that there is a law that governs the conduct of human beings in society. The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides a short description of natural law beginning at paragraph 1954.

Regarding your specific question, the connection between the sexual act and procreation was obvious to ancient peoples. It was also obvious that the survival of their community depended upon the proper rearing of children, which is well served by a monogomous husband-wife relationship. The sexual act clearly also bonds a man and woman together. Thus, the natural law shows us that the sexual act has both a unitive and procreative aspect.

I have heard an academic state that, while natural law clearly supports a monogomous relationship for the rearing of children, the natural law alone does not convince us that a couple should stay together after their children are on their own. He said that it is only divine revelation that teaches us that divorce is wrong. This would be an example of the limits of natural law alone.
 
40.png
BayCityRickL:
To be specific, consider some of the pelvic natural laws. why is the “purpose” of human sexuality soley the procreation of life? That’s probably the last thing on people’s minds.
Click to expand...
It may or may not be the last thing on their minds, but it is the natural purpose towards which the act is directed. The act tends toward the fulfillment of its function. That’s natural law. It also tends toward the emotional unification of the two parties (necessary for child rearing.) When we try to circumvent both of these ends, trouble ensues.
 
40.png
Grayton:
Natural law is the law of human conduct which is discovered by human reason, reflecting on human nature. It is independent of the law God has revealed in Scripture. But both are in harmony, since both come from God.

The Romans understood natural law before Christianity. It is not necessary to be a Christian or Jew to realize that there is a law that governs the conduct of human beings in society. The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides a short description of natural law beginning at paragraph 1954.

Regarding your specific question, the connection between the sexual act and procreation was obvious to ancient peoples. It was also obvious that the survival of their community depended upon the proper rearing of children, which is well served by a monogomous husband-wife relationship. The sexual act clearly also bonds a man and woman together. Thus, the natural law shows us that the sexual act has both a unitive and procreative aspect.

I have heard an academic state that, while natural law clearly supports a monogomous relationship for the rearing of children, the natural law alone does not convince us that a couple should stay together after their children are on their own. He said that it is only divine revelation that teaches us that divorce is wrong. This would be an example of the limits of natural law alone.
Click to expand...
Let’s say natural law exists.

How does one know if one has correctly discerned natural law?
 
40.png
srgibbons:
Hello!

My 28-year old son came back to the Church almost two years ago. He is pursuing a PhD in English literature. He reads constantly. He has trouble with understanding the Natural Law as it applies to Church teaching. (He has read Thomas Aquinas.) I am looking for something for him to read–possibly contemporary–on that subject . Would the Pope’s Theology of the Body be a good source? He has trouble with the issue of homosexuality. His fiancee, a recent convert, grew up in a non-religious culture in So. California, was educated by former nuns, attended Scripps College. They have friends who are “gay.” The issue is probably as much or more hers than his. What can I suggest at a fairly intellectual level for them to read?
Click to expand...
I took this course from the Teaching Company teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=4453&d=Natural+Law+and+Human+Nature

It is an outstanding overview of Natural Law Theory by a prominent Jesuit Philosopher. Only buy from the Teaching Company when it is on sale. Check your local library. My library carries many of the Teaching Company’s courses. Becareful with the Teaching Company as many of the “Religion” courses are heretical. This course on Natural Law however is very good.

In addition you can take a great course on Aristotle’s Ethics teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=408&d=Ethics+of+Aristotle by the same professor.
 
40.png
SHEMP:
I took this course from the Teaching Company teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=4453&d=Natural+Law+and+Human+Nature

It is an outstanding overview of Natural Law Theory by a prominent Jesuit Philosopher. Only buy from the Teaching Company when it is on sale.
Click to expand...
I am in the middle of this course right now, I agree that it’s very good! I have already purchased the Aristole’s Ethics course too!
In addition you can take a great course on Aristotle’s Ethics teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=408&d=Ethics+of+Aristotle by the same professor.
Click to expand...
40.png
Matt16_18:
Definitely get him a copy of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis also is an excellent book for anyone struggling with the Natural Law, but unlike Mere Christianity, it isn’t written specifically to show the connection between the Natural Law and Christianity. The Abolition of Man shows how the unchanging truths knowable through the Natural Law are expressed in different cultures.
Click to expand...
I think that this is an excellent suggestion! A few years ago reading Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis opened my eyes to Natural Law as it applies to Christianity, it’s an easy and enjoyable read, great suggestion! I haven’t read The Abolition of Man but I intend to now for sure!
 
40.png
Ken:
Let’s say natural law exists.

How does one know if one has correctly discerned natural law?
Click to expand...
If we all had perfect consciences, this would be a moot question since we would all have 100% agreement about what is right and what is wrong. Everyone is born with a conscience, but because of the Fall, everyone is also born with consciences in need of formation. This is why Christ had to found a Church with a Magisterium that is protected by the Holy Spirit from ever teaching error in matters of morality.

If God didn’t give divine protection to his church to keep it from falling into moral error, then men with defective consciences would certainly lead his church into moral error. Even with the best intentions, how could a living Magisterium prevent the church from from teaching moral error? Bishops and popes also have consciences that are defective in some manner.

One only needs to look at Protestantism to see what happens when well-intentioned people decide for themselves what constitutes morality. Protestants, as a whole, can’t agree on anything when it comes to morality. That is why Protestants often go church shopping. Just shop around until you find a Protestant denomination that reflects the defects of your own conscience, and presto, you have found what must be a spirit filled church, since you are happy being a member in that church. It doesn’t matter if the church has lesbian priestesses or racist fascists teaching the morals, what matters is if I feel affirmed in my defects of conscience.
 
40.png
Matt16_18:
If we all had perfect consciences, this would be a moot question since we would all have 100% agreement about what is right and what is wrong. Everyone is born with a conscience, but because of the Fall, everyone is also born with consciences in need of formation. This is why Christ had to found a Church with a Magisterium that is protected by the Holy Spirit from ever teaching error in matters of morality.

If God didn’t give divine protection to his church to keep it from falling into moral error, then men with defective consciences would certainly lead his church into moral error. Even with the best intentions, how could a living Magisterium prevent the church from from teaching moral error? Bishops and popes also have consciences that are defective in some manner.

One only needs to look at Protestantism to see what happens when well-intentioned people decide for themselves what constitutes morality. Protestants, as a whole, can’t agree on anything when it comes to morality. That is why Protestants often go church shopping. Just shop around until you find a Protestant denomination that reflects the defects of your own conscience, and presto, you have found what must be a spirit filled church, since you are happy being a member in that church. It doesn’t matter if the church has lesbian priestesses or racist fascists teaching the morals, what matters is if I feel affirmed in my defects of conscience.
Click to expand...
That might have meaning for devout Catholics, but what meaning would it have for society at large? Such an explanation fails in developing social policy.
 
40.png
Ken:
That might have meaning for devout Catholics, but what meaning would it have for society at large? Such an explanation fails in developing social policy.
Click to expand...
The Jews never thought that the laws of their society should exist apart from Judaism. Nor have Catholics ever believed this.

It is only the secular humanists that believe that their new religion can bring about a just society apart from God.

The time has come for widespread recognition of the radical changes in religious beliefs throughout the modern world. The time is past for mere revision of traditional attitudes. Science and economic change have disrupted the old beliefs. …

While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation. We therefore affirm the following:

FIRST: Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created.

SECOND: Humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as a result of a continuous process….

EIGHTH: **Religious Humanism ** considers the complete realization of human personality to be the end of man’s life and seeks its development and fulfillment in the here and now. This is the explanation of the humanist’s social passion.

NINTH: In the place of the old attitudes involved in worship and prayer the humanist finds his religious emotions expressed in a heightened sense of personal life and in a cooperative effort to promote social well-being.

Blah, blah, blah …

Humanist Manifesto

Why should Catholics care about forming a society around the false religion of secular humanism? Catholics are called to transform the world, not to sell out to the world’s values.

It seems that many Catholics have forgotten the doctrines involving the social reign of Christ the King.
 
40.png
Matt16_18:
The Jews never thought that the laws of their society should exist apart from Judaism. Nor have Catholics ever believed this.

It is only the secular humanists that believe that their new religion can bring about a just society apart from God.

The time has come for widespread recognition of the radical changes in religious beliefs throughout the modern world. The time is past for mere revision of traditional attitudes. Science and economic change have disrupted the old beliefs. …

While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation. We therefore affirm the following:

FIRST: Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created.

SECOND: Humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as a result of a continuous process….

EIGHTH: **Religious Humanism ** considers the complete realization of human personality to be the end of man’s life and seeks its development and fulfillment in the here and now. This is the explanation of the humanist’s social passion.

NINTH: In the place of the old attitudes involved in worship and prayer the humanist finds his religious emotions expressed in a heightened sense of personal life and in a cooperative effort to promote social well-being.

Blah, blah, blah …

Humanist Manifesto

Why should Catholics care about forming a society around the false religion of secular humanism? Catholics are called to transform the world, not to sell out to the world’s values.

It seems that many Catholics have forgotten the doctrines involving the social reign of Christ the King.
Click to expand...
Catholics can do their best to form society as they wish, just as the rest of the folks can do the same. I just wondered if they had any chance of prevailing when their basic argument is that we all should do what the Catholic Church says. So far, I’d say events have shown that to be a very weak argument.
 
40.png
Ken:
Catholics can do their best to form society as they wish, just as the rest of the folks can do the same. I just wondered if they had any chance of prevailing when their basic argument is that we all should do what the Catholic Church says. So far, I’d say events have shown that to be a very weak argument.
Click to expand...
You are correct. This is not the right argument. The right argument is that Jesus Christ changed my life and I am 1000% happier and have a 1000% better life because I committed to him wholeheartedly - and guess what? He’s there for you too.

Then, once you have their interest, you open up the beauty of the Catholic teachings and you explain their rich truths and the hope that they give to your life that nothing else ever will.

These are the things that people are afraid to do because secular culture (humanists) think we must never mention God or utilize concepts from God to provide any solutions. Bunk! Jesus Christ is the only solution.

You are either addicted to Jesus or you are addicted to something else that will not satisfy you - sex, drugs, alcohol, romance novels, soap operas, television, work… you name it.
Something is your god - if it is not God, then you will be empty inside.

Be must not fear the Gospel - fear is an instrument of the devil - and we must proclaim the Gospel. We do not say society must follow these rules - we say, as participants in a democracy, that we believe this is the best rule for society and this is why - this is our opinion.

This takes some work, some reading, some catechism, some teaching - bottom line, it takes people to decide to no longer be lazy and live for the next 5 minutes but to live for eternity - I’m talking about Catholics and other Christians here - time for us all to wake up and spread the good news - believe it, live it, change the world.
 
Without the aid of Divine revelation, human society has two choices to organize itself:
  1. Discerning and applying natural law to the best of their ability.
  2. Arbitrary decision making by whomever has power.
 
40.png
Matt16_18:
If we all had perfect consciences, this would be a moot question since we would all have 100% agreement about what is right and what is wrong. Everyone is born with a conscience, but because of the Fall, everyone is also born with consciences in need of formation. This is why Christ had to found a Church with a Magisterium that is protected by the Holy Spirit from ever teaching error in matters of morality.

If God didn’t give divine protection to his church to keep it from falling into moral error, then men with defective consciences would certainly lead his church into moral error. Even with the best intentions, how could a living Magisterium prevent the church from from teaching moral error? Bishops and popes also have consciences that are defective in some manner.
Click to expand...
Dear Matt16_18,

This has been a fascinating thread. I’ve heard of natural law referred to, but this is the first time I knew what it was about.

Who or what is the Magisterium? Is it a concept, or is it a specifically defined set of bishops + the pope, or something else? How, indeed, can any teachings discerned and promulgated by human beings with defective consciences be considered to be free, without a doubt, from moral error? Even if a teaching were unanimous among all the bishops and endorsed by the pope, does that mean it is free from moral error?

I’m not trying to cause problems here; I just can’t understand and/or buy into this concept. I have been on other threads talking about infallibility with rationale for our belief that the Church even has such divine protection. Now I ask, how does this divine protection manifest itself? Do we know that? If we don’t know, then I just wonder how anybody can believe that a man with a defective conscience can claim infallibility on any teaching, much less a committee of such men.:confused:

Alan
 
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
Who or what is the Magisterium? . . . Even if a teaching were unanimous among all the bishops and endorsed by the pope, does that mean it is free from moral error?
Click to expand...
Yes.

The Magisterium is the Pope and the bishops teaching in unison what has been handed down to them. Jesus promised to protect the Church from error in matters of faith and morals.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top