Need an explanation for a Muslim relative tragedy

[InternetWoman]

Baptism is necessary for the Beatific Vision, however,

This is a requirement God levied on his Church. We must Baptize anyone who comes to us for admission to the faith.

However! God if free to do whatever He pleases. This is where we get the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood/Martyrdom. It is much like what the Catechism says happens to people WHO THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN do not know Christ. They are saved if they do the best they can with the knowledge they have. Same for these Muslim parents who loved their child. It could very well be that if the parents had understood all the Jesus is they would have wanted Baptism for their child. In which case this may be a case of Baptism by Desire of a new sort.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is a requirement God levied on his Church. We must Baptize anyone who comes to us for admission to the faith.

However! God if free to do whatever He pleases. This is where we get the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood/Martyrdom. It is much like what the Catechism says happens to people WHO THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN do not know Christ. They are saved if they do the best they can with the knowledge they have. Same for these Muslim parents who loved their child. It could very well be that if the parents had understood all the Jesus is they would have wanted Baptism for their child. In which case this may be a case of Baptism by Desire of a new sort.

I don’t see where Pope Benedict states anything but hope and prayer, which is indeed in order. All the teachings of the Church are binding and Pope Benedict was certainly capable of addressing the issue. There is nothing theologically conclusive but hope and prayer. And yes God is free to do as he please’s. So you are saying all these children from whatever walk in life are now Saints? I don’t see where the Church teaches anything conclusive on this.

And the 2005-2007 dates really makes no difference, as the point is, this has been debated since before Augustine. Its simply not clear. Hope and prayer.

And the Lord said “My Father’s house has many rooms” if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"

 

[GaryTaylor]

Purgatory is not an option for two reasons:

1. Those in purgatory are heading for heaven.
2. Those in purgatory are there because they committed sins and while the guilt was forgiven the recompense was incomplete and they need to be cleansed of the stain of sin. Since the child could not commit sin he/she has nothing from which to be cleansed

Original Sin you seem to omit? Thats the purpose of baptism.

 

[InternetWoman]

Original Sin you seem to omit? Thats the purpose of baptism.

The point I was trying to make is that purgatory is not a place for an unbaptized sinless baby, since original sin is not personal sin. Purgatory is there to address those who have sinned. There “must” be a different solution for unbaptized babies. God just hasn’t told us what it is.

 

[St_Francis]

The teaching of the Church is they do not know, they hope and pray.

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“The Christian faith affirmation of the necessity of sacramental Baptism for salvation cannot be depleted of its existential significance by being reduced to a merely theoretical affirmation.”

"Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. "

It does not say they are saved, it says; “hope they will be saved.”

And suppose hope is in vain, then they are not saved where does this leave the unbaptized as indicated above? Hoping they are in purgatory?

Not in Purgatory, which is a place of pain where we are purified, but a place of natural happiness.

The only problem I had was advocating teaching something that is not taught by the Church—that unbaptized children *are *in Heaven. Given Sam’s situation and that he is discussing this with Moslems, I thought it bad advice. What if later on these people decided to convert and then discover something they thought was true about Catholic teaching is not true? And does God want us to tell people something that is not true (The church teaches that…)? I think not!

I fully agree with the Chirch’s position that we do not know, and it may not be, bit that we can hope *and pray *that it might be. After all, we celebrate the Feast of the Holy Innocents.

I also think that perhaps it was God’s wisdom which lead to this information being withheld from us. Because we do not know, we pray more and we pray more fervently, don’t we? And prayers which are “not needed” for the purpose for which they are offered are used by God for other purposes.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Not in Purgatory, which is a place of pain where we are purified, but a place of natural happiness.

The only problem I had was advocating teaching something that is not taught by the Church—that unbaptized children *are *in Heaven. Given Sam’s situation and that he is discussing this with Moslems, I thought it bad advice. What if later on these people decided to convert and then discover something they thought was true about Catholic teaching is not true? And does God want us to tell people something that is not true (The church teaches that…)? I think not!

I fully agree with the Chirch’s position that we do not know, and it may not be, bit that we can hope *and pray *that it might be. After all, we celebrate the Feast of the Holy Innocents.

I also think that perhaps it was God’s wisdom which lead to this information being withheld from us. Because we do not know, we pray more and we pray more fervently, don’t we? And prayers which are “not needed” for the purpose for which they are offered are used by God for other purposes.

Right, Purgatory isn’t a sticking point with me, original sin and remission of sin, if I was to suggest everyone is in purgatory unborn, then that would be about the same as suggesting they are all Saints -Beatific Vision. So we are talking predestination of providence, in other words they were not deserted by God, God creates in love, nor could they have deserted God, but there is no creation not subject to original sin and from conception. So in reflection the short is, this was merited by Adam and Eve. And that in itself is a blessing, also - “Let the little children come to me, and do not prevent them,” thus is to have hope that there is a way to salvation for infants who die without Baptism.

 

[Sam_777]

The few positives from all this can be the fact that the baby is no longer and will never again suffer (much of human life is suffering), the parents may have a soul in heaven praying for them,

Thank you, that will be part of my explanation to them.

 

[Petaro]

Thank you, that will be part of my explanation to them.

Hope and Prayer is all we have to offer. Let us all offer these in saying a small hopeful prayer for the entire family in their terrible grief.
Lord, take this bubs to Abba Your Father. We offer our prayer for all You are preparing for this child and all we cannot offer Baptism of water, but offer you our Hope, a gift from our Faith in Your mercy which we hope to share in through our baptism and our faith in You to the end. Give comfort for the family coming to terms with their loss within their own faith in You, the one God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you, that will be part of my explanation to them.

Theres very good reason to believe the unborn children will be saved. The Church teachings frame both sides of the debate through St JP-II and Pope Benedict which is no surprise as they spoke constantly. Pope Benedict quotes St JP-II a few times in the conclusion which could also be further read through the footnotes along with the history. In effect limbo as stated several times is/was a “theory” undefined by the Church. We are seeing two sides of the theological debate, they both refer back to the CCC on Baptism and salvation of the unborn, unbaptized in the footnotes.

This placed past arguments in perspective and leaves the question open to discuss. Where the children in fact are namely, one could easily think back to the OT and how God saved His holy people prior to the redemption of Christ and Sacrament of Baptism. The question itself as to where the children are is beyond the capacity of man to speak for God at this point. Its hasn’t been revealed as the Church states.

Peace and prayer

Also just to note further, Purgatory is also undefined and understood as purification which indeed would apply to original sin. Further we know they go somewhere in route to the Beatific Vision which they will see.

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Its also a higher state of existence than Limbo, so the need to disregard it as plausible I don’t see. Its not defined as suffering but of purification. I see no reason to be so sure about this when we arn’t sure about the purification process in short.