Need apologetics help for this objection about Native Americans

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PraiseChrist

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This is a variant of the problem of evil question, so if anyone has Faith troubles, please wait for someone to answer this question first. Thank you always.

Objection to be answered:
The Native Americans suffered from the expansion of the European colonization. Millions of innocent men, women, and children were killed in this, while their culture was destroyed.
Why would God allow this to happen? And why would He allow the Catholic Faith to be given a worse reputation, since the Natives view the Catholic Faith and Christianity in general, as a part of the cause that ruined their culture?

God bless you
 
Where in the New Testament does it suggest God is controlling our actions?
Never debate religion with someone using the arguments of a 5 yr old.
 
Theo520 said:
Where in the New Testament does it suggest God is controlling our actions?
Never debate religion with someone using the arguments of a 5 yr old.
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Hi,

I don’t mean to say God forced people to do these things, but the objection is why he allows this to happen. Of course, I see these as involuntary doubts.

God bless
 
PraiseChrist said:
Hi,

I don’t mean to say God forced people to do these things, but the objection is why he allows this to happen. Of course, I see these as involuntary doubts.

God bless
Click to expand...
Don’t play games with this, that is exactly what you said. You clearly indicated he could/should have stopped us, ergo he controls us.

Back to my question, where in the NT or any RCC doctrine does it indicate God controls our actions?
 
God doesn’t control any of our actions in the Bible, or in Church doctrine, but he gives us free will to accept or reject his will for us. But if we choose to do so, like Peter chose to deny Christ, God allows it, and did allow it then, and did so for a greater good–the redemption of humanity
 
One may say that God allows this to occur for a greater good, but can we know which good will come about?
 
PraiseChrist said:
One may say that God allows this to occur for a greater good, but can we know which good will come about?
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No, we cannot always know the mind of God. That is why any argument that starts out with "Why would God… " (and there are many of them) is likely to be a faulty argument. That said, I want to disagree with Theo’s comment about acting like a 5 year old. Ask any parent who has ever lost a child and you will get a very similar line of reasoning. It is not a sign of immaturity. I know.
 
Thank you for the response, a priest told me that the best answer for the problem of evil was the Crucifixion of Jesus, which I would agree.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
No, we cannot always know the mind of God. That is why any argument that starts out with "Why would God… " (and there are many of them) is likely to be a faulty argument. That said, I want to disagree with Theo’s comment about acting like a 5 year old. Ask any parent who has ever lost a child and you will get a very similar line of reasoning. It is not a sign of immaturity. I know.
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A 5yr old understands God much like imagining a very powerful parent looking over their shoulder and correcting them. The OP argument is premised on a 5yr olds definition of God. Many atheists debate religion using this simplistic level of God definition and it’s a lose/lose debate at this level.
 
Theo520 said:
A 5yr old understands God much like imagining a very powerful parent looking over their shoulder and correcting them. The OP argument is premised on a 5yr olds definition of God. Many atheists debate religion using this simplistic level of God definition and it’s a lose/lose debate at this level.
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When I lost my daughter to a heroin overdose, I was asking very similar questions like “Why would God let such a thing happen?”. Until you are in that situation, do not be so sure you won’t ask such questions too. And don’t insult anyone you don’t know by saying they are acting like a 5 year old.
 
PraiseChrist said:
This is a variant of the problem of evil question, so if anyone has Faith troubles, please wait for someone to answer this question first. Thank you always.

Objection to be answered:
The Native Americans suffered from the expansion of the European colonization. Millions of innocent men, women, and children were killed in this, while their culture was destroyed.
Why would God allow this to happen? And why would He allow the Catholic Faith to be given a worse reputation, since the Natives view the Catholic Faith and Christianity in general, as a part of the cause that ruined their culture?

God bless you
Click to expand...
Some greater good which is obviously hidden to us.

St. Kateri Tekakwitha, pray for us!

St. John de Brebeuf, pray for us!

St. Isaac Jogues, pray for us!

St. Junipero Sera, pray for us!

Etc.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
When I lost my daughter to a heroin overdose, I was asking very similar questions like “Why would God let such a thing happen?”. Until you are in that situation, do not be so sure you won’t ask such questions too. And don’t insult anyone you don’t know by saying they are acting like a 5 year old.
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Sorry about your loss but the argument is still what a 5yr old might make. That one is in deep pain is probably what leads to the simplified logic.

Calling it the argument of a 5yr old is also not saying you are acting like a 5 yr old, it’s illustrative of the depth of the argument; 5yr olds generally don’t get the complexities of a deeper religious faith or understand of how the world operates.
 
PraiseChrist said:
This is a variant of the problem of evil question, so if anyone has Faith troubles, please wait for someone to answer this question first. Thank you always.

Objection to be answered:
The Native Americans suffered from the expansion of the European colonization. Millions of innocent men, women, and children were killed in this, while their culture was destroyed.
Why would God allow this to happen? And why would He allow the Catholic Faith to be given a worse reputation, since the Natives view the Catholic Faith and Christianity in general, as a part of the cause that ruined their culture?

God bless you
Click to expand...
Pueblo apache wars
 
PraiseChrist said:
This is a variant of the problem of evil question, so if anyone has Faith troubles, please wait for someone to answer this question first. Thank you always.

Objection to be answered:
The Native Americans suffered from the expansion of the European colonization. Millions of innocent men, women, and children were killed in this, while their culture was destroyed.
Why would God allow this to happen? And why would He allow the Catholic Faith to be given a worse reputation, since the Natives view the Catholic Faith and Christianity in general, as a part of the cause that ruined their culture?

God bless you
Click to expand...
This is a good article to explain more about the Church and Native Americans.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=8902

It is just a beginning of your much needed research on the history of the Catholic Church and plight of Native Americans. Indian Tribes fought wars between themselves and the men prided themselves on being great warriors.
 
PraiseChrist said:
Hi,

I don’t mean to say God forced people to do these things, but the objection is why he allows this to happen. Of course, I see these as involuntary doubts.

God bless
Click to expand...
He allows it to happen because we have free will. God does not control our actions.
 
Because everybody, including those who act for the Church or Christendom generally, have free will, but are not free from venality, greed and plain old sin.

For reasons best known to Him, God’s respect for human free-will is paramount, even when it will lead to tragic deaths or venal conquistadors.

Also, we must remember that cultures collide every century, and the result is often one culture being subsumed by the other. Native-Americanism and Euro-Westernism were cultural settings that could not, for any number of reasons, coexist side by side, and Europeans wanted the land; i.e. the collision was coming no matter what. Historically, religion just happened to be at the head.

ICXC NIKA
 
This really boils down to two different arguments, 1. Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? 2. How can God be with the Catholic Church if there are things that happen such as the Native Americans, or the Inquisition, and so on?

You can find many better answers than mine, but I’d say 1. God allows free will, people do evil things against to commands/wishes of God. 2. God did not promise a Church full of saints, people free from sin, or those that are only the best of humanity. He promised we would have infallibility, and some other things, but anyway, you get the point.
 
PraiseChrist said:
This is a variant of the problem of evil question, so if anyone has Faith troubles, please wait for someone to answer this question first. Thank you always.

Objection to be answered:
The Native Americans suffered from the expansion of the European colonization. Millions of innocent men, women, and children were killed in this, while their culture was destroyed.
Why would God allow this to happen? And why would He allow the Catholic Faith to be given a worse reputation, since the Natives view the Catholic Faith and Christianity in general, as a part of the cause that ruined their culture?

God bless you
Click to expand...
Native Americans suffered from the expansion of other Native Americans long before Europeans showed up. The history of mankind has always been one of displacement of one people by another.

Do Native Americans actually view Christianity as the cause of their downfall? I don’t imagine there are many Mexicans who long for the good old days of human sacrifice and cannibalism, nor American Indians who wish to go back to constant warfare, stealing, scalping and torture that the natives were expert at before they were forced to stop. Christianity has been a blessing for the natives of the Americas. Read up on Fr. Pierre-Jean DeSmet, a Jesuit missionary who converted scores of natives in the U.S. They loved him and trusted him like a brother.
 
boomerang said:
Native Americans suffered from the expansion of other Native Americans long before Europeans showed up. The history of mankind has always been one of displacement of one people by another.

Do Native Americans actually view Christianity as the cause of their downfall? I don’t imagine there are many Mexicans who long for the good old days of human sacrifice and cannibalism, nor American Indians who wish to go back to constant warfare, stealing, scalping and torture that the natives were expert at before they were forced to stop. Christianity has been a blessing for the natives of the Americas. Read up on Fr. Pierre-Jean DeSmet, a Jesuit missionary who converted scores of natives in the U.S. They loved him and trusted him like a brother.
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My dad is 100% Lakota, my mom is 50% Cherokee. Never once did either of them long for the “good old days” before the white man came. They raised us to be thankful for Jesus, and they were very happy as a people we could learn about Him. We were fighting amongst ourselves before Europeans came. We weren’t all animal loving, peaceful, so healthy we never died of diseases people before the Europeans crossed the ocean. Some tribes were quite brutal! My husband is 100% Huasteco (a Mayan tribe). His entire hometown is Catholic, and very devout at that! They are certainly not waiting for the return of the old days.

Some of my extended family are activists and hate white people (and ironically Mexicsns too even Los Indios). They call me white because my grandfather was an Irish immigrant. I can’t see how any type of talking could change their minds or diminish their anger. It’s very misplaced, though, and they are the ones in the wrong. No one alive today has done anything to take away cultures or kill or rape or spread diseases. There truly isn’t a way to “make up for” the things that have happened. It’s time to move on.
 
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