Need backup refuting claim that Vatican was complicit in Ethiopian genocide

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Complex issues, like so many others. Italy wanted more of Africa, as France, England, Belgium and Portugal had. So, it did what imperialists do - it invaded Ethiopia with modern weapons, while the Ethiopians had little to fight them with. The whole thing was outrageous. Sadly, the League of Nations was too weak to do much about it.

** Now, the role of the Vatican seems ambiguous.** There is some evidence that the Pope blessed the adventure, declaring that the Italians would bring Christian civilization to Ethiopia. Of course, most Ethiopians already were Christians of the Coptic variety. On the other hand, Avro Manhattan has produced much of the evidence, and he was an out-and-out anti-Catholic, and his writings have to be questioned.

** In fact, the role of the Vatican was ambiguous throughout that era,** The Popes were in a bind. They were Italians, and some natural patriotism was likely. Mussolini, by the way, was hailed even among some progressive Americans in the 20s. That changed in the 30s, when he became a buddy of Hitler and Franco.
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 ** The Popes had so many things to consider.** One of them was the spectre of communism in an aggressive USSR, a deadly enemy of the Church. I suspect that this is one reason that the Vatican did not speak out more against Mussolini and Hitler. Perhaps as important, Franco in Spain became a darling of the Vatican, largely because the Loyalists in the civil war there were bitterly anti-Church as well as supported by the Communists. It was during this period that Opus Dei began, led by a Spaniard. Etc.
** I’m not sure the Pope should apologize re Ethiopia**. We probably need a careful and objective study of what happened. It is true that various Italian bishops supported the invasion. They were swept into the war fever that enveloped most Italians at the time. Patriotism can do that even though Bishops should be immune. They’re not.

** I am not a serious stamp collector, but as a young child I became very interested in the only two countries in Africa that we not basically controlled by European powers**. One was Ethiopia. The other was Liberia, though it could be argued that that country was run by an alliance of American investors (rubber, in particular) with Americo-Liberians, descendants of those freed slaves who returned to Africa. The capital, Monrovia, tells who was US president when this venture was undertaken.

** The Vatican made some major bloopers over the centuries.** One of the worst was when the Pope ordered a Te Deum mass sung to celebrate the massacre of St. Bartholomew, when thousands of French Huguenots who had gathered for a wedding were slaughtered.
**No one is perfect, not even the Pope.** God bless him and good people of every creed, color, culture and country. Let's make religion a cridge and not a barrier.
 
“The Pope was bound…?” “The Vatican has to be careful…?”

Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Against the law.

Popes are the representatives of Christ on earth. Not one is “bound.” If the Vatican is supposed to be just another country and the Pope just another world leader, then Catholicism is… what? A really widespread secular institute?

I don’t know enough about the while issue to post an opinion except that the idea that the Pope should or should not do anything for any other reason than obedience to the will of God is a pretty scary idea.
I didn’t say that the Pope sits on his hands. He still does condemn the actions and promotes principles. But the way he does it is that he doesn’t directly name the party. Again with the Iraq War, the Pope never said “The US must not invade Iraq.” But the Vatican did aggressively work to broker a solution between the parties, and the Pope spoke a lot of peace, peace, peace in his speeches of the time.

So although there was no verbal condemnation of the parties, the Vatican did do its part following God’s Will.
 
I believe you’re thinking of the book “Hitler’s Pope” I would be surprised if a book written by a Catholic with a last chapter being an apologia was anti Catholic. What I’ve read so far certainly isn’t - but then people on this forum seem to have a rather loose definition of “anti-Catholic”.

Also note that this thread isn’t talking about Jews, it is talking about Ethiopians. What the Vatican did for or to the Jews does not impact on the Ethiopians in the least.
Ah, you’re right…I *was *thinking of Hitler’s Pope. My apologies. That being said, the title of this other book suggests that Pius was somehow complicit in Hitler’s actions…or am I totally off-base here? I realize that Pius’ efforts concerning the Jews is not related to the Ethiopians…I simply brought it up because I felt obliged, out of my reverence for a great pope I believe to be in heaven, to dfend Pius’ honor. As referenced in my previous post, Pius’ efforts on behalf of the Jews are well documented. I really am far too ignorant of the situation regarding the Ethopians to comment. Does this author cite his claim that the Vatican financed Italy’s war?
 
The Vatican needs to apologize for UFO abductions, the Illuminati, exterminating the Caroligina bloodline and hiding that information behind the painting of the Last supper, the sinking of the Titanic, me scratching my car last month as well as the Ethiopian genocide. Give me a break.
 
This thread appears to be part of disturbing trend of anti-Roman Catholicism here at EC CAF. It’s a shame. It’s supposed to be East and West – not East vs West.
I agree! There are several “Regular members” who state that they are either athiests or Orthodox who do nothing but attempt to disparage those who hold cathholic view points. They are superficially adept at debating and do everything they can to win their diluded points up to and including mis-stating history.
They, of course hide their true identities. Oh, how brave they are! Speaking out with the protection of the anonymity of the internet. Sometimes I think they are here only to try our Christian patience…sort of G*ds punishment for our venial sins.
 
This thread appears to be part of disturbing trend of anti-Roman Catholicism here at EC CAF. It’s a shame. It’s supposed to be East and West – not East vs West.
If it is not true, I think you should be able to refute the allegation. I have confidence that you can, just do it. 👍 Either it is true or it is not.

If a thread closes because it makes someone uncomfortable without resolving the question it will give the impression that something is being hidden. Better to just address it and move on.
 
Ah, you’re right…I *was *thinking of Hitler’s Pope. My apologies. That being said, the title of this other book suggests that Pius was somehow complicit in Hitler’s actions…or am I totally off-base here? I realize that Pius’ efforts concerning the Jews is not related to the Ethiopians…I simply brought it up because I felt obliged, out of my reverence for a great pope I believe to be in heaven, to dfend Pius’ honor. As referenced in my previous post, Pius’ efforts on behalf of the Jews are well documented. I really am far too ignorant of the situation regarding the Ethopians to comment. Does this author cite his claim that the Vatican financed Italy’s war?
As far as I’ve read in the book (and I’m going through it very slowly for a variety of reasons) it has only just got up to the point where he is elected. However it depicts Pius XII as a human being dealing with very human issues. It mentions that he nearly quit his post as Secretary of State (and papal heir apparent) over the whole Ethiopian mess, and he only stayed on because he was convinced by someone else that he was heir apparent to the Papacy, and that he could make some real difference in that post.
It is not a hagiography by any means, and it does paint him as a conflicted human being, but it certainly does not attack him.

As for the citation for the Vatican financing Italy’s war, I have no idea, as I don’t have it handy at the moment.
 
What evidence is provided for an Italian genocide in Ethiopia
Who was put on trial by the Allies
The victors surely had the means.
The word seems to be extreme in this case
Genocide implys the systematic extermation of a race.
 
What evidence is provided for an Italian genocide in Ethiopia
Who was put on trial by the Allies
The victors surely had the means.
The word seems to be extreme in this case
Genocide implys the systematic extermation of a race.
I do not believe that the Allies put any Italians up at the War Crimes Trials at Nuremberg, probably because Mussolini was dead and the Italians had switched sides.
 
I do not believe that the Allies put any Italians up at the War Crimes Trials at Nuremberg, probably because Mussolini was dead and the Italians had switched sides.
Nuremberg was for Germans. I’m sure the Italians had their own set of trials. I’m not familiar with it myself.
 
Perhaps genocide is too loaded a term. Treatment of the Ethiopians wasn’t in any way comparable to the Holocaust, of course.

On the other hand, Mussolini’s Italy launched an outrageous attack on Ethiopia, who had done nothing to provoke it. The Italian military overwhelmed the primitive forces of this African country. The idea that Italy was bringing Christianity and civilization to Ethiopia was bogus, a wild and weak excuse for old-fashioned imperialism. The only possible justification - which was no justification at all - is that other European nations had carved out colonies in Africa, also, and Italy wanted its share.
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Remember: in the 1930s Europe generally focused considerable attention upon ethnic pride and solidarity, a silly concept that led to much nonsense. Mussolini tried to exploit Roman glory. Hitler tried to revive Teutonic and Aryan mythology. Etc. Despite a Christian veneer, these nations (and others) conducted their foreign policies on such 'principles' as might makes right and white culture and African pagan primitivism.  

 As for the role of Catholicism, unfortunately it generally went along. Even German Catholics overwhelmingly supported Hitler once he was safely in the saddle and began to 'win victories' for Germany. Hitler, of course, was himself baptized as a Catholic, which some Catholics then and even today treat as a sort of everlasting spiritual and even physical mark.
 
As far as I’ve read in the book (and I’m going through it very slowly for a variety of reasons) it has only just got up to the point where he is elected. However it depicts Pius XII as a human being dealing with very human issues. It mentions that he nearly quit his post as Secretary of State (and papal heir apparent) over the whole Ethiopian mess, and he only stayed on because he was convinced by someone else that he was heir apparent to the Papacy, and that he could make some real difference in that post.
It is not a hagiography by any means, and it does paint him as a conflicted human being, but it certainly does not attack him.

As for the citation for the Vatican financing Italy’s war, I have no idea, as I don’t have it handy at the moment.
Adding to this pope: The citation of this was “La Popessa”, which is an English language work based on the diaries of Pascalina.
 
Nuremberg was for Germans. I’m sure the Italians had their own set of trials. I’m not familiar with it myself.
As far as I can tell, there was no Allied tribunal of the Italians, mainly because the British and Americans wanted to quickly establish an anti-Communist government in Italy and too many of their leaders would have been implicated. However, it looks like some of the more egregious war criminals were extradited to Greece and Yugoslavia.

Probably a lot of people were able to escape justice by jumping to the Allied side at just the right time, which is unfortunate but its difficult to see how the Allies could have gotten Italy out of the war without those offers. Somebody like Pietro Badoglio probably should have been hauled up on charges, but wasn’t.
 
You are not responding to my post, although you call it ‘silly’. I said the Vatican should apologise, not for genocide, but for failing to oppose Italian fascism and the invasion of Ethiopia. Your ‘some troops’ argument is false. The USA is opposed to war crimes as part of its official policy. Italian fascist policy was specifically in favour of them, including the invasion of Ethiopia.
^
What about the many many vatican radio broadcasts condemning fascism, communism, nazism, etc… Declarations on communism, dictatorships, modernism fascism, fascism, fideism, rationalism, nazism, various declarations on the dignity of human life, dignity of slaves, dignity of servants, dignity of woman, dignity of men, socialism, social teachings, faith and reason, euthanasia, sneezing, masticating, love, hate, universal salvation of men, etc…
And the fact that it is the largest charitable orginization, the largest church orginization that ministers to aid/HIV victims, made the church the safest place for children by ending the endophillia crisis themediareport.com , etc… ?

Shalom
 
^
What about the many many vatican radio broadcasts condemning fascism, communism, nazism, etc… Declarations on communism, dictatorships, modernism fascism, fascism, fideism, rationalism, nazism, various declarations on the dignity of human life, dignity of slaves, dignity of servants, dignity of woman, dignity of men, socialism, social teachings, faith and reason, euthanasia, sneezing, masticating, love, hate, universal salvation of men, etc…
And the fact that it is the largest charitable orginization, the largest church orginization that ministers to aid/HIV victims, made the church the safest place for children by ending the endophillia crisis themediareport.com , etc… ?

Shalom
What about them? What do they have to do with the subject matter?
 
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