Need explanation to some passage

[theStrugle]

Hi all,

a guy quoted the bible verse below:

To again quote Deuteronomy, it is stated that any man who loses his testicles or penis cannot enter heaven. Surely someone stricken with testicular cancer can still be accepted by God, no? I also wish that a persons different interpretation of the bible should be respected. There is no one correct way to look at the bible. I feel it’s best used as a form of guide. Take from it what you can.

For example, a very religious friend of mine is a transsexual. While still living as a guy, she suffered terribly from her worries that what she was doing was not allowed by her religion. I spent quite a while helping her through it all. I’d been raised in a highly religious town, and so I knew my fair share of the bible, and we discussed how exactly her position was considered. The quote I mentioned above seems fairly adamant that if she were to go through with everything, (which she did), that she could never enter heaven. So we went about studying how the bible looks at eunuchs. In Isaiah, God very clearly states that eunuchs that hold to his laws and covenant can indeed get into heaven. (He even makes a bit of a pun in saying "give them an everlasting name that cannot be cut off. Even the bible can crack a joke here and there.)

In Acts, there is a story of an evangelist who takes the time to spread the word to a eunuch, and has him baptized. In Matthew, it is stated that some eunuchs are made by accident, some by fellow humans, and some to themselves. In each case, all of them are said to be accepted by God. Most convincing for her however, was a passage from Mark, in chapter 9. Jesus himself says that if a part of your body bothers you or causes you to sin, then remove it. It’s better to be comfortable with yourself and closer to god than to suffer otherwise. That quote can be interpreted in many ways, and ultimately led my friend to feel comfortable about her decision. And then there was more. In Samuel, Acts, Galatians, and John there are quotes saying that God doesn’t look at gender, and that anyone who believes is alright in his eyes.

what does he mean w/ the verses?

then another guy quoted…

The Bible says to kill all women who have had sex before their marrage. 95% of all women should be dead. Kill all non-christians. Another 75% of the worlds population. Kill all people who have lied to their parents. 99% of the world’s dead. Kill all homosexuals. The world is dust, everyone had to die to fulfill what the bible says.

The Bible is said to be influenced by God, and every word, was spoken by God himself, only put to paper by man. So the Bible was literally written by God himself. God himself also is said to be perfect in every way possible. So everything he does is perfect and truthful. So if this is to be true, then the whole Bible must be considered fact, unless there is one fallacy in the text. If there is no fallacy then the Bible must be taken to be all truthful and stone cold facts.

In the Bible, under verse Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27
With God all things are possible

This states that God can do anything that he wishes.

However, in the verse Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

This verse directly contradicts the verse stated above. If there are fallacies in the Bible, then the Bible is not perfect. If the Bible is not perfect, then God himself is not perfect. If that is true, then it is possible to believe that those who wrote the Bible are no more perfect than you or I.

any contradicting issues here?

Thanks again for the enlightenment.

Dennis

 

[puzzleannie]

In no case has OP or the un-named sources he quotes provided any specific bible verse, so there is nothing to discuss.

 

[theStrugle]

hi,

how about the verses…

In the Bible, under verse Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27
With God all things are possible

This states that God can do anything that he wishes.

However, in the verse Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Does this contradict on anything? I’ll try to ask the guy to provide the verses on other passage he mentioned.

Thanks,

 

[puzzleannie]

and either of those verses has to do with eunechs?

 

[theStrugle]

i dont know what to say but the guy in another forum mentioned those verses and try to contradict things w/c im not familiar with. hes an atheist and we’re discussing about science and religion, where he tried to say the bible is contradicting itself…

thanks,

 

[lak611]

However, in the verse Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Does this contradict on anything? I’ll try to ask the guy to provide the verses on other passage he mentioned.

Thanks,

From Adam Clarke’s commentary, “Jdg 1:19 -
And the Lord was with Judah, and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron - Strange! were the iron chariots too strong for Omnipotence? The whole of this verse is improperly rendered. The first clause, The Lord was with Judah should terminate the 18th verse, and this gives the reason for the success of this tribe: The Lord was with Judah, and therefore he slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, etc., etc. Here then is a complete period: the remaining part of the verse either refers to a different time, or to the rebellion of Judah against the Lord, which caused him to withdraw his support. Therefore the Lord was with Judah, and these were the effects of his protection; but afterwards, when the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim, etc., God was no longer with them, and their enemies were left to be pricks in their eyes, and thorns in their side, as God himself had said. This is the turn given to the verse by Jonathan ben Uzziel, the Chaldee paraphrast: “And the Word of Jehovah was in the support of the house of Judah, and they extirpated the inhabitants of the mountains; but afterwards, When They Sinned, they were not able to extirpate the inhabitants of the plain country, because they had chariots of iron.” They were now left to their own strength, and their adversaries prevailed against them. From a work called the Dhunoor Veda, it appears that the ancient Hindoos had war chariots similar to those of the Canaanites. They are described as having many wheels, and to have contained a number of rooms. - Ward’s Customs.”

From John Wesley’s commentary, “Jdg 1:19 - Could not drive - Because of their unbelief, whereby they distrusted God’s power to destroy those who had chariots of iron, and so gave way to their own fear and sloth, whereby God was provoked to withdraw his helping hand.”

 

[theStrugle]

Thanks for interpretations,

regards,

 

[theStrugle]

here’s some he quoted again based from the above msggs/ passages…

Forcing women to marry their rapist: Deuteronomy, chapter 22
If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

No male organ = no heaven: Deuteronomy, 23:1
He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

It then later says in Isaiah, 56:4
For thus says the Lord: to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument better than sons and daughters, I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

This she took to mean that God doesn’t discriminate based on a physical body.

And in Acts chapter 8, lines 26-39 tell a story of a eunuch who is evangelized and baptized.
Another example of how the physical body doesn’t matter.

In Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Once again. Whether by accident, by other humans, or by one’s self, a physical change doesn’t mean anything.

In Mark, 9:43, Jesus says:
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

This was the biggy. Certain parts would cause her to sin, and so, there you go.

Samuel 16
I do not judge as man judges. Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.

Acts 10:34
Peter began to speak: "I now realize that it is true that God treats everyone on the same basis. Whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him…

Galatians 3:28:
there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

And the classic John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

These she all took to reassure here that physical gender makes no difference to God.

And so again, this was our interpretation. Someone else’s could differ. My point however was not to prove her right or wrong, but to show that each person can take something different from the bible. In this case, she suffered long from something that she was afraid violated her religion. What she took from the passages was the strength and courage to go through with her little journey. In cases like this, I don’t think it should be anyone’s goal to try to convince her otherwise. She took it one way, and her faith became stronger from it. How could anyone disagree with that?

Thanks for help…

 

[theStrugle]

Actually this guy is trying to make excuses because his guy’s friend had undergone transexual w/c is obviously unacceptable in our church. any thoughts?

thanks,

 

[jmcrae]

here’s some he quoted again based from the above msggs/ passages…

Forcing women to marry their rapist: Deuteronomy, chapter 22
If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

It was a primitive society - they didn’t have jails.

If a guy today knew he had to marry any girl that he raped (and live with her in the same house, and buy her flowers every anniversary, and send all of her children to college) perhaps he would think twice about dropping a drug into her drink, or talking her into something against her will.

No male organ = no heaven: Deuteronomy, 23:1
He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

This has nothing to do with Heaven - it just means that he can’t become a priest. It’s the same today - priests can’t be men who have been mutilated against their will. They have to choose their celibacy voluntarily.

It then later says in Isaiah, 56:4
For thus says the Lord: to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument better than sons and daughters, I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

These are men who became eunuchs voluntarily, for the sake of the Lord. (They weren’t priests. They guarded the King’s harem.)

This she took to mean that God doesn’t discriminate based on a physical body.

And in Acts chapter 8, lines 26-39 tell a story of a eunuch who is evangelized and baptized.
Another example of how the physical body doesn’t matter.

Who is “she?” Our bodies matter to the extent that we will be taking them with us to Heaven after the final Judgement Day. Whatever we do to them, we will live with for all of eternity - that’s just a fact, it’s not a threat of any kind. But it contains a caution to not do anything irrevocably stupid, of course …

 

[theStrugle]

Who is “she?” Our bodies matter to the extent that we will be taking them with us to Heaven after the final Judgement Day. Whatever we do to them, we will live with for all of eternity - that’s just a fact, it’s not a threat of any kind. But it contains a caution to not do anything irrevocably stupid, of course …

She is actually the he before… (his friend). i guess hes a gay and had gone transexual…

does this has anything to do with…

In Mark, 9:43, Jesus says:
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Thanks for your thoughts jmcrae

regards.,

 

[ktp]

My issue with what this poster (on the other forum) is saying is this:

The friend who had a sex change operation is claiming to have done so because his male parts ‘caused’ him to sin? In what way did they do so? And now that he is a she, s/he’s going to live a life of chastity according to God’s word, until marriage?

The verse about cutting off a body part is ONLY if the body part causes you to sin, not, as the poster from the other forum originally said, also to ‘feel comfortable with yourself.’ The verse also does not say anything about replacing those body parts with others.

 

[tito]

With regards to your atheistic friend that created the doubt with regards to God’s omnipotence in Judges 1:19, be aware that the whole context of a passage is more frecuently answered in either the same section or chapter or book. Judges 2:2,3. answers the question: God allowed their defeat as judgement for their disobedience since HE had instructed them to drive out the Caananites inhabitants and they (the israelites) did not. Get a taste of God’s rebuke of the different tribes who disobeyed Him (Manasseh, Ephraim, Zebulum, Asher etc) as listed in the last few verses of Judges ch.1. As for God not admitting a eunuch or castrated or mutilated person in Heaven, let your heart be certain that it is not your physical condition at death that determines salvation, and at that the only sin that can keep a person out of Heaven is the impardomnable sin. The Scriptures defined this sin as a willful blasphemy of the H. Spirit by the rejection of Christ as described in Matt 12:21-38, when the scribes and the Pharisees ascribed Christ miracles to Beelzebub (Satan). Heaven is for whosoever repents by accepting our Savior Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross as full payment for our sins since we are utterly incapable of doing that ourselves (without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness Hebrews 9:22, NAB).Do you want to go to Heaven? Ask Jesus to forgive your sins and grant you repentance unto savation and do it today! The unpardonable sin applied to the religious leadership of the generation in which Jesus lived (Saducees, Pharisees, Scribes-teachers of the Law) who repeatedly rejected not only all the prophetic pronouncements of the O.T. Scriptures that Jesus fulfilled but also the witness of his miracles (healings, exhorcisms, walking on water, etc).What more evidence could be given? Well, He rose from the dead (sign of Jonah) but not even that changed their hard hearts. Just be sure your heart is willing and receptive (he who comes to me I in no way will cast out).

 

[Ruthie]

No male organ = no heaven: Deuteronomy, 23:1
He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

The assembly referred to is the Synagogue, not heaven. Plus this is the old covenant, that Jesus fulfilled. We are no longer ruled by the many old laws.

It then later says in Isaiah, 56:4
For thus says the Lord: to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument better than sons and daughters, I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

This she took to mean that God doesn’t discriminate based on a physical body.

He/she kind of ignored the part about “who choose to do things that please me,” didn’t s/he? As long as we’re in the OT, that would include Dt 22:5: A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

In Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Once again. Whether by accident, by other humans, or by one’s self, a physical change doesn’t mean anything.

Not quite. This person did not make himself a eunuch “for the kingdom of Heaven.” He, a male, chose to live as a female. I am not without sympathy for his plight; it is a heavy cross to bear. But we must bear our crosses. I repeat, I am filled with compassion for this individual. There are tears in my eyes as I write.

In Mark, 9:43, Jesus says:
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

This was the biggy. Certain parts would cause her to sin, and so, there you go.

And just how did certain parts cause him to sin? Did the sin cease once the parts were gone?

Samuel 16
I do not judge as man judges. Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.

Acts 10:34
Peter began to speak: "I now realize that it is true that God treats everyone on the same basis. Whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him…

Galatians 3:28:
there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

These verses, and the conversion of the eunuch in Acts, certainly do show that conversion is possible for anyone in any physical state, including this “transsexual.” And in that salvific sense, physical gender makes no difference to God. But this person needs to understand that he has sinned gravely, and to repent and receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

He has also committed the scientific error of bending the evidence to fit his conclusion, and of ignoring evidence to the contrary. That is not uncommon when studying the Bible!

I’ll pray for him.

Ruthie

 

[Ignatius]

Hi all,

a guy quoted the bible verse below:

To again quote Deuteronomy, it is stated that any man who loses his testicles or penis cannot enter heaven. Surely someone stricken with testicular cancer can still be accepted by God, no? I also wish that a persons different interpretation of the bible should be respected. There is no one correct way to look at the bible. I feel it’s best used as a form of guide. Take from it what you can.

What verse? The person didn’t cite any verses in the supposed quote.