Need feedback of my understanding on “faith”

[Mwer4c]

I cannot grasp what the actual difference between the typical Protestant/catholic belief on the whole “faith alone” thing is.I have had my individual understanding of this before looking into catholic/Protestant belief and I need some help here.

(I want to point out that I understand that Protestants May have a wide range of beliefs on this subject - just trying to set the stage)

Both sides seem to accept the following:

(1) Faith begins by grace
(2) the human “will” accepts/rejects this offer of grace.
(3) This initial inception of grace must be cultivated. (Building relationship)
(2) We are judged by a relationship with God

But do protestants have problems with saying something like the following:?

“Developing a relationship with god is done by human will, an action of a human will (faith) is the same as “works”…therefore a relationship with god is built (in-part) upon “works”.

Really I just see “faith” and “works” as the EXACT same thing. they are analogous terms. If faith is an “action”, not “feeling” then it is a “work”. right?..I would understand faith/works Relationship with god as a “positive feedback loop”…I guess it comes down to definitions here —what does “faith” mean? I don’t know if I can accept that “faith” and “belief” are synonyms — because I don’t think that “belief” in a classical sense is a “choice” — because “belief” is a feeling…But “faith” is the act of living a lifestyle (works) even when “belief” as a “feeling” may not be present. And eventually “faith” may turn into “belief”?

What am I not getting here? Just looking to start a conversation on this topic

 

[fhansen]

Yes, faith without action, or deeds, etc, is no real faith at all, or a worthless one. But some Protestants insist that faith, alone, strictly putting one’s trust fully in Jesus to save us, is and should be the only requirement.

In any case works done for the right reason actually spring from love, which is where faith is meant to lead as it establishes communion with God, the essence and source of all love and goodness. Augustine would actually say, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing”. And the Church teaches something more akin to Sola Caritas, which Protestants often don’t quite know how to deal with. She teaches, quoting St John of the Cross, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

As far as the will goes, Protestantism varies on that, with some teaching that man’s will plays no part whatsoever and that grace is irresistible while others teach that man may say no to God, with grace being resistible. The Church teaches the latter, that man cannot possibly save himself and yet he can say no to being saved, whether at the beginning of his relationship with God or at any point later down the line.

 

[Latin]

What am I not getting here?

Faith and belief are synonyms and our Faith/ belief is God’s Gift.

FAITH [feɪθ]
NOUN
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
synonyms
trust · belief · confidence · conviction ·

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This is the way God PREPARES/ CAUSES the unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. to say YES to His gift of Faith/ belief.
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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
CCC 298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them. 148
And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.
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1 Cor.6:11; And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
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Ezekiel 36:27; And I will put my Spirit in you and I cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SIMPLIFIED
CCCS 1990-1991; "Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide.)

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation and no one will say no, God’s will is immutable.

St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).

Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature," De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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God bless

 

[Latin]

Really I just see “faith” and “works” as the EXACT same thing. they are analogous terms. If faith is an “action”, not “feeling” then it is a “work”. right?

Our Faith and Our Works are two totally different gifts of God.

The Father William Most Collection​

St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I. (1) On human interaction with grace : Every good work, even good will, is the work of God:
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
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Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work.
Augustine showed very well our total and utter dependence on God.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.

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MERIT
Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
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Divine reward for the practice of virtue.
“The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but GRACE, which is unmerited, PRECEDES actions in order that ENABLE them to be done.” (Council of Orange 529 AD, Denzinger 388).
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God bless

 

[Mwer4c]

That answer there is what I struggle with the most and what I ultimately fear departing me from Christianity as a whole.

What if someone just simply doesn’t “believe” and has tried their entire life to believe. Ask god for belief, dedicate life to works to try to find this belief, ask others to pray for them, try to listen for the calling at all times, study scripture etc.but the belief is simply not there. They can just act “as if”…Since belief is not a choice, it’s gods grace, gods grace is simply not evident even when sought after by many people.

 

[Mwer4c]

Here is where I stand to clarify all this:

I would say that i have “faith” and I “trust” In god and seek out love, but have not been blessed with belief, as I still seem to question the existence of god.

 

[MiserereMei]

I am sorry. I am on my phone at the moment and don’t have any documentation on hand. I can give it later if requested. I just have time for a quick note, and so cannot look this up in online sources.

For Lutherans, works can be seen as included in the operational definition of saving faith. After all, if someone does not have good works, they cannot be said to have saving faith, even if they confess the Creeds. So when Lutherans say “faith alone”, they do not deny the necessity of good works, but rather say that trusting in our own works is not what saves us. Rather faith (trust) is in Christ and HIS Works to save us: It is Christ alone who saves, and our good works must be seen in light of his.

Conversely, it can be argued that someone who seeks God and desires faith has, in some measure, already received it. Questioning does not damage faith, in and of itself.

 

[Mwer4c]

Conversely, it can be argued that someone who seeks God and desires faith has, in some measure, already received it. Questioning does not damage faith, in and of itself.

Yea I am just rapid firing off my phone as well,

Interesting point though… I just don’t seem to have this rock hard unwavering belief that others have…this is largely what has drawn me to apologetics.

I want to shine a light on the point above that faith and belief are synonyms…I guess my question to everyone is this. Does any man have 100% belief in god? Or would that require a perfect man (Jesus)? Therefore, when I say I believe —that is not to say I fully believe…It’s more like me saying: I believe enough to dedicate my life to this thing.

 

[neophyte]

The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat , meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah , which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12 where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it’s about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the “obedience of faith”. At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that HolyChurch proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.”

These are all actions , things we do in obedience to God. Thus the Apostle Paul says in Romans 1:5 "Through Him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith…” This obedience is the essence of Christianity: submission to the Eternal One who was enfleshed, and through that submission being brought into union with Him so that we may participate in His divine life.

It’s important to understand that the Catholic view is not that we are a spirit stuck in a body, nor are we a composite of a body, a soul and a spirit as is commonly held among Protestants. God created us as a body/soul unity , not two things stuck together but one whole. As we pray with our minds using words , so we also pray with our bodies using actions . As we submit to God with our wills , so we also submit with our deeds . To speak of “faith” as separate from “works” is schizophrenic, because faith is the assent of our minds enfleshed in our actions.

Faith is most certinaly NOT “belief in something without proof or evidence”. That’s called “credulity”.

 

[fhansen]

Faith is a gift of grace, which it sounds that you have. We can know and believe in something without knowing how we know it in this case. It’s as if the heart can know but the mind can still wonder, and you’re being honest about that wondering.

But belief in God is not unreasonable either, and the Church acknowledges “motives of credibility” that help us believe from a purely rational standpoint as well. Anyway, little by little the mind is also swayed. Also, some of our resistance can actually come from pride, related to a sort of fear of what the world thinks. And there’s a constant struggle or challenge in that.

 

[MiserereMei]

I guess my question to everyone is this. Does any man have 100% belief in god? Or would that require a perfect man (Jesus)?

Honestly, I am a bit terrified of those who, though sinners, claim a 100% unquestioning belief in God. We cannot fathom the full depth of even one article of the Creed (nor could the drafters), so how can we say we have 100% belief?

Faith that clings to Christ and his cross and faith that spurs one to devote one’s life to God in one way or another is what we poor beggars have by the grace of God.

As someone who daily battles with doubt, there are days where I have to let Christ believe for me.

 

[neophyte]

What if someone just simply doesn’t “believe” and has tried their entire life to believe. Ask god for belief, dedicate life to works to try to find this belief, ask others to pray for them, try to listen for the calling at all times, study scripture etc.but the belief is simply not there.

That sounds to me like an astonishingly faithful believer.

 

[GLam1761]

To me, GOD is the one who gives out various amts of
faith, as in the parable of the Talents that the Master
gives to his servants before leaving for a distant country.
What WE DO with the measure of Faith entrusted to us
is what saves us. those who do not exercise their faith-
deposit will be banished from the presence of their Lord,
where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”.
See Matt 25:28-30; Romans 12:3-5