Need Help answering A Protestant , Please help

[SoulRebel777]

She wrote this after I mentioned no sin can enter heaven and that man either is purged by his sin on earth a rare thing indeed or in purgatory, what would be a good reply…thanks

Rightly dividing the Word would absolutely conclude that heaven is sinless & so would we be once we arrive. I gave scripture for my post, where is yours? I also was trying to get across the point that you can’t do enough good things or be good enough on your own to make it into heaven. And please, make some practical application to your “biblical knowledge” because I read some hostililty in your post. If I’m wrong about the hostility, forgive me. But knowledge does us no good if not applied

 

[Rattivore]

I suggest 2 things:

1. Don’t accept sola scriptura. Often they predicate that you have to prove something from the Bible alone. That itself is unscriptural. Make them prove that before you would accept it. They will not be able to do so.
2. You can try I Cor. 3:11-15. They will not agree with our interpretation. But that opens up the discussion of who has authority to interpret and why is it that no 2 Protestants agree if it is all so clear.

Have fun!

 

[catholickid79]

i cant make out all of the protestants quote. i would need more of what he/she said. There are implications in scripture of purgatory (1 corinthians 3:15) but we msut remind the protestant that their assertion that everything has to be explicity in scripture is wrong. the bible doesnt teach that. in fact the bible points us to oral teachings preserved through the Church. 2 thess 2:15) 2 cor 2:2 again its ahrd to respond because the protestants quote seems vague–but please remember to call the prot back on the fact that the bible itself doesnt tech that every christian doctrine doesnt have to be in scripture. and if they disagree please ask for a verse just one for sola scriptora

 

[martino]

Wow, I definitely read some hostility in what SHE wrote to you. I am assuming that the second paragraph was from her.

It sounds to me that she wants Scriptural proof that nothing unclean can enter heaven. Give her Rev 21:27 (nothing unclean shall enter heaven), and further proof that our souls will be purged before entering heaven is 1Cor 3:11-15;

"11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

I hope this helps!! She sounds like a little fireball!!

 

[gomer_tree]

I also like the gospel quote where Jesus is talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being a sin that can be forgiven neither in this world, or the next. Don’t have time to locate the exact chapter and verse now, but why would Jesus imply there is a place of forgiveness *after *this world, if we were forgiven (and all reparation were made) for all our sin while on earth?

If the argument is of Purgatory, make it clear that Catholics don’t teach that Purgatory saves the damned. We are saying that only the saved can go to Purgatory, but there is simply refinement needed before heaven.

 

[Fidelis]

First of all, don’t let her lead you around by a nose-ring. Insist on having your say and presenting your case without interuption. Have her consider these verses:

Heb 12:14 -
Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Rev 21:27-
But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15-
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

(She may not accept this last verse as proof of Purgatory, but tell her that is the way the Church has ALWAYS interpreted it and that’s good enough for you. Leave it at that. She’s free to disagree with the Church’s interpretation, but you are free to disagree with hers.It’s her interpretation against the Church’s 2000 year old one)

She seems to acknowledge the fact that all in heaven must be pure. Also, see if she will acknowledge the additional fact that practically everyone will die with at least some attachment to sin (bad habits, predominant faults, whatever). So, if at one point we can be unclean and the next point we are clean where and/or how does that cleaning take place? Whatever process she proposes, invite her to consider that as Purgatory. By at least getting her to acknowledge that much, you have opened the door a crack, no matter how small.

 

[carlc]

Fortunately or unfortunately, a considerable portion of what we know and believe concerning purgatory comes from writings other than Scripture (ie Early Church Fathers). It’s probably going to be a difficult and separate argument altogether to discuss Sola Scriptura and the failings thereof. Perhaps it may be best left as a carrot to dangle at the conclusion of the current discussion? As to scriptural support for purgatory your reference to Rev 21:27 is a good start probably best followed by Mt 12:32 “this age or the next”. What is the “next age” if not purgatory as we understand it. If indeed it is, according to Matthew, an age in which sins can/will be forgiven, it cannot be Heaven as sin cannot enter there and so will have had to have been forgiven prior to. Also see the following:

Mt 5:26, 2 Macc 12:44-46, 2 Tim 1:16-18, 1 Pet 3:18-20 & 4:6

 

[MarkPerz]

SoulRebel777:

Rightly dividing the Word would absolutely conclude that heaven is sinless & so would we be once we arrive.

I’m not sure what this sentence actually means. ??

It also seems that she is asking you to prove salvation or justification by works, which would be an example of her defining the Catholic position as she sees it, and then arguing against her own definition. The Catechism, #1996, teaches our justification comes from grace.

Besides that, I would probably ask her clarify what she means by, “rightly dividing the Word would absolutely conclude that heaven is sinless…”

 

[Yirmeyahu]

Hopefully this can add to the tons of posts that are good here…

Jesus Christ died on the cross so that sins may be forgiven. Not so that everyone is saved. Jesus shed his blood so that sins may be forgiven… sound familiar? Jesus did not pay for our consequences just for our sins.

If we are all saved by just believing, then why would Jesus teach us to pray, “Forgive us our sins?”

 

[JohnCarroll]

SoulRebel777:

She wrote this after I mentioned no sin can enter heaven and that man either is purged by his sin on earth a rare thing indeed or in purgatory, what would be a good reply…thanks

Rightly dividing the Word would absolutely conclude that heaven is sinless & so would we be once we arrive. I gave scripture for my post, where is yours? I also was trying to get across the point that you can’t do enough good things or be good enough on your own to make it into heaven. And please, make some practical application to your “biblical knowledge” because I read some hostililty in your post. If I’m wrong about the hostility, forgive me. But knowledge does us no good if not applied

You might try reason:
If she agrees that nothing unclean can enter heaven, ( plenty of verses on this ) then ask her if she feels she is now perfect? She will say no. “Then how can you enter heaven?“you say.” I guess God will do something”, or a version of this will be her reply --and THAT is the Catholic position.

 

[John_Henry]

SoulRebel777:

Rightly dividing the Word would absolutely conclude that heaven is sinless & so would we be once we arrive.

It seems your pen pal has somewhat the right idea. They seem to think heaven is sinless. They are right (Rev. 21:27). They seem to think we will be sinless when we get there. Again, they are right. That means that something has to happen between when they die (not sinless; no protestant would say they were sinless at death), and when they get to heaven, which they themselves have said is sinless. What is that “something”? Catholics call it purgatory. They would call it some-process-of-sanctification-that-God-does-after-I-die-but-before-I-get-to-Heaven. The only difference between the two views is that the Catholic view is more economical with words.

Undoubtedly, they are arguing against some view of purgatory that is not the Catholic view. Find out what they think purgatory is. Then gently show them that they have the wrong idea.

Because, ultimately, purgatory is nothing more than the same process of sanctification that was happening in the person before death, but happening after death instead. If sanctification before death (which protestants agree with) isn’t works salvation or adding to the finished work of Christ or whatever, then neither is sanctification after death. This type of thinking requires logic, beyond simple proof-texting.

I seem to always make this push: if you want a really detailed answer, buy Jimmy Akin’s book, “The Salvation Controversy”. It has a chapter on this stuff. This might help too: mark-shea.com/purgatory.html And this: mark-shea.com/purgatory2.html

 

[carlc]

In her post, “Rightly dividing the Word” may refer to a particular protestant theology called “Right Division”. It is a confused and strange thought process that I am only familiar with in name. John Martignoni, a nationally know apologist and local personality here in Birmingham, AL has had a good bit of experience with the “Right Division” folks. Assuming your Protestant friend is a subscriber to the Right Division theories, he may be able to help you rresond better. You can reach him at catholic@bellsouth.net

 

[atelim]

Do read the following articles with lots of bible references.

1. Purgatory
2. Primer on Indulgences

atelim

 

[Malachi4U]

First, Sola Scripture is pure fiction so you can use outside sources too. Make her prove otherwise. Second, the word ‘Trinity’ is not in Scripture so is it false? The Catholics came up with words like ‘Trinity’ and ‘Purgatory’ to describe concepts in Scripture and Tradition.

God refines us as sinners in the same way we refine gold and silver, in fire! I have even heard some say that heaven is the hottest place imaginable? Hot? That’s right Hot! Why? Because Gods love for us is like a fire. Nothing survives His love except that which is 100% pure. So in heaven we would be sinless and pure, nothing but ‘pure’ love. Fire burns off all the impurities we have and leave a sinless soul ready for heaven. Plus how else could you describe this concept to a person with a much smaller vocabulary then we have today and knows of nothing but what they had in their very simple lives back in those days? Call it “CONTEXT”. A Shepard 2,000 years ago had no concept of making something very precious (i.e. gold and silver) pure except by fire? Our souls represent gold and silver and the fire represents Gods love and cleansing process. Terms ancient people could understand but people who have credit cards and shop in air-conditioned malls may have forgotten today?

Study CCC 1030, 1031, 1032 here: [usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm](http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm)

Study these verses and in context.

Ze 13:9, Heb 12:29, Mal 3:2-3, Mt 3:11, 1 Pe 3:19, Pe 4:6, 1 Pe 3:19-20, Mt 3:10-12, Mk 9:42-50, Mk 9:42-50, Lk 3:16-17, Acts 2:34, Jude 4-24, 1 Cor 3;13-15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Cor 7:8-9, 1 Cor 15:42-44, Cor 15:50-53, Heb 10:26-27, Heb 12:23

It’s a start but I hope it helps. Remember it is all in the delivery that counts so make sure they are receptive and have an ‘open’ mind before you begin. Many Christians have been conditioned (not their fault either) to ignore your arguments or to tune them out. So make sure you are not talking without being ‘heard’.

 

[Quisp]

Also, please look at James 5:20 -
“remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”

and…

1Peter 4:8 -
“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a
multitude of sins.”

If Jesus has already paid 100% of the penalty, there would be no need for scripture to contain either of these 2 verses.

God Bless.

 

[tobias]

St. Paul was aware of his own sin, himself a born-again Catholic, for he said ‘When I want to do good, I do the wrong.’ and that he found that there was a war between his mortal body and the spirit. Obviously Paul was aware that he would die with the stains of sin and exclaimed ‘who will deliver me from this mortal body.’ Of course the answer is Christ.
On another note, in my opinion the best case to be made for the existense of Purgatory in the scriptures is in the book of Revelations. We find at the end of the world that the dead shall be raised. We first have the saints who have died in Christ returning with Him at the end and then something peculiur happens ‘Death gave up its dead. and Hades gave up its dead.’ Notice that the two are distinct places/realities which exist apart from each other. Since those who die outside of God’s grace are truly the ‘dead’ then who are these souls in Hades (Greek for the abode of the dead)? The equivelent in hebrew is Sheol. If we look to the old testament Sheol was not thought of as for godless alone or for the god fearing alone. In the book of Numbers (?) when the tribe of Dathan and Korah sinned the earth opened up and they were taken alive to Sheol. But we find that Job considered it better for himself to go down to Sheol than to remain in his state of torment. Clearly not the same fate awaited all in Sheol. In the Gospels we find that after the resurection many of the old testament saints were made manifest, clearly having been released from Sheol. This was possible because, as found in Peter’s epistles, when Christ died he went and preached the spirits in prison, the place of the dead. The above mentioned passage in Revelations only makes sense if those souls in death are the ungodly and the souls in Hades are the souls in Purgatory, otherwise why the seperation? and if the souls in Hades are the damned, which is not indicated in the passage either way, then how come they are not found in ‘death’?

 

[mr_bozo]

1 Cor 15:29

Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

Compare with 2 Macc.12:44:

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

Some people have suggested that here ‘baptized’ refers to a form of penance. What ever it is, it is being done with the mind to confer some sort of benefit to the dead. No matter how one twists and turns this verse, this is what is happening here. I’d like to see how your friend gets out of this one!