Need Help Defending Christian Atonement Belief

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Madaglan

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Hey, on another forum I often post I came across this thread posted by a Jew. This Jewish poster is extremely reactionary and doesn’t believe in the existence of the soul after death. Please help me understand why he is wrong. Anyhow, here is what he posted: of Original Sin:

quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, in another thread I basically bashed Paul’s doctrine of Original Sin for the most part because I directly and in totality disagree with his false sense of justice (his injustice) of placing upon one man the actions of another, but this to the side for just a bit, let’s look at what Ezekiel says because I might not be alone…

quote:
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

(Post continued on my reply)
 
Now, I ask this because it is exceedingly important as to who you believe is God and what you label as justice:

Who do you believe, Paul or Ezekiel?

These two men teach EXACT opposites.

Paul says,
“if through the offence of one many be dead,”
and
“as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation”

while Ezekiel says,
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son”
and
“the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

So my question is, which teaching do you accept as truth/justice and why?

I picked Ezekiel because holding each man responsible for their own actions is my definition of justice and holding mankind responsible for the actions of a man they never met is injustice in my book.

There is a really big problem however if you listen to Ezekiel’s justice statement however…see if you can figure out what it is…

(End Thread)
 
From a very quick glance it looks like he holding an incorrect notion of the Christian teaching on Original Sin. It is not a black mark that God stamps on every soul before it leaves the factory, it is an absence (or *depravation * for you eggheads) of sanctifying grace. Think of it like a squandered inheritance. It does not matter how innocent the children are, if the parents squander the inheritence, there is nothing there.

Scott
 
From a very quick glance it looks like he holding an incorrect notion of the Christian teaching on Original Sin. It is not a black mark that God stamps on every soul before it leaves the factory, it is an absence (or *depravation *for you eggheads) of sanctifying grace. Think of it like a squandered inheritance. It does not matter how innocent the children are, if the parents squander the inheritence, there is nothing there.
That may be. Yet, I think what he is trying to say is that, in Ezekiel, it is written that the descendents of one man shall not suffer for the iniquitous man does. For example, according to his understanding of Ezekiel, God does not punish man for because of something that his ancestors did. I guess this would mean that we should not be punished for the sin of Adam and Eve.
 
This is my interpretation of the passages. Your mileage - and the *official * Catholic version - may vary.

In reading Ezekiel in a vacuum you failed to grasp the meaning of the proverb that he dissects ("Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, what is the meaning of this proverb that you recite in the land of Israel: “Fathers have eaten green grapes, thus their children’s teeth are on edge”?). For that, you need to turn to Jeremiah, where Jeremiah *explains * the proverb:

**In those days they shall no longer say, “The fathers ate unripe grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge,” ** but through his own fault only shall anyone die: the teeth of him who eats the unripe grapes shall be set on edge.

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD.

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel is referring to the new covenant *as discussed in * Jeremiah, where the sins of the ancestors (Adam and Eve) will be removed, and *no longer * will the sins of the father be visited upon the son.

So don’t read Ezekiel alone. The passage you referred to MUST be read in conjunction with Jeremiah to grasp the full meaning. Hope this helps.
 
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