Need help in "all we have to do is believe and repent" Protestant argument

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Hi everyone,

I’m discussing this with a Protestant friend. what he’s saying is that

“the prayer: " Father forgive us of our iniquities.” is one broad stroke to include all sins, including presumptuous sins (sins that we commit, thinking we have God’s permission)"

in reference to saying that the Holy Spirit will enlighten us, to be able to allow us to remember our sins and thus to confess them, ask for forgiveness and repent of them.

There were 2 further questions that i asked him (the ones in blue are my questions, the ones in brown is his answer)
  1. Would you consider yourself to be one of the righteous am only righteous in Christ. The Scripture has said that “No one is righteous by himself.”
  2. Are you saying that with the help of the Spirit, that you have remembered every single sin that you have committed and thus repented of them all?
    Even if I cannot remember every sin I had committed, I can certainly pray this manner:" Father, I ask in Jesus name to forgive me of every sin that I have committed against You. Sins that I am conscious of, sins that I was not conscious of (iniquities)."
This discussion is that there is no need for purgatory because the Holy Spirit will allow us to remember all our sins and repent of them before we die, hence no need for purgatory.

I have already quoted and explained most of the texts supporting purgatory but it seems as though he is not reading it or consciously or unconsciously misunderstanding it.

So i’m trying to argue it from his point: that God will help everyone to remember their sins and repent of them.

To try to show him that this is not feasible.

Please help… thanks everyone…

ADRIAN
 
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ANWK:
Hi everyone,

I’m discussing this with a Protestant friend. what he’s saying is that

“the prayer: " Father forgive us of our iniquities.” is one broad stroke to include all sins, including presumptuous sins (sins that we commit, thinking we have God’s permission)"

in reference to saying that the Holy Spirit will enlighten us, to be able to allow us to remember our sins and thus to confess them, ask for forgiveness and repent of them.

There were 2 further questions that i asked him (the ones in blue are my questions, the ones in brown is his answer)
  1. Would you consider yourself to be one of the righteous am only righteous in Christ. The Scripture has said that “No one is righteous by himself.”
  2. Are you saying that with the help of the Spirit, that you have remembered every single sin that you have committed and thus repented of them all?
    Even if I cannot remember every sin I had committed, I can certainly pray this manner:" Father, I ask in Jesus name to forgive me of every sin that I have committed against You. Sins that I am conscious of, sins that I was not conscious of (iniquities)."
This discussion is that there is no need for purgatory because the Holy Spirit will allow us to remember all our sins and repent of them before we die, hence no need for purgatory.

I have already quoted and explained most of the texts supporting purgatory but it seems as though he is not reading it or consciously or unconsciously misunderstanding it.

So i’m trying to argue it from his point: that God will help everyone to remember their sins and repent of them.

To try to show him that this is not feasible.

Please help… thanks everyone…

ADRIAN
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Hello ANWK,

This is hard simply for the fact that I have been there. I am a convert to the faith, yet as a Prot had a very real and moving ‘experience’ with Christ and the Holy Spirit. God knew He needed to get to me and He needed to do it quick. I was not in good shape. I felll in love with Sacred Scripture and Jesus, and for many years walked faithfully that way. But, I remained open to Gods purifying my understanding of truth and this eventually led me to His true church. So I feel very compassonate for your friend, I know He probably loves our Lord very much.

I think it will just take prayer and lots of love for Him to feel attracted to the church. He needs to see that you are ‘sincere’ in loving God and not simply religious. Most Prots friends of mine have rarely seen Catholics in there lives (some none at all) who have a burning love for Jesus Christ. I think when people can see that radiant love of Christ in us, coupled with the holiness, beauty and mystery of the church, they will be drawn like a moth to a flame!

I really feel that most folks who love our Lord desire holiness and desire to move deeper into the mysteries of the Godhead.*** Dedicate your friend to the Immaculate heart of Mary***, pray rosaries for him and let your light so shine that he will ‘see your good works and glorify God in heaven’ amen?
God bless you brother:)
 
Hi Michael,

thanks for your post, my friend does indeed love God, he tries the best he can to care for his fellow man. sometimes his ways might not be so acceptable to the rest of us, but we all know that he is a very nice man at heart.

he has very strong views though and try as i might to use scriptures, logical explanations, he somehow still misunderstands purgatory as cheapening Christ’ sacrifice for us…

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut anyway, really appreciate it…

ADRIAN
 
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ANWK:
Hi Michael,

thanks for your post, my friend does indeed love God, he tries the best he can to care for his fellow man. sometimes his ways might not be so acceptable to the rest of us, but we all know that he is a very nice man at heart.

he has very strong views though and try as i might to use scriptures, logical explanations, he somehow still misunderstands purgatory as cheapening Christ’ sacrifice for us…

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut anyway, really appreciate it…

ADRIAN
Click to expand...
You bet buddy. Don’t get me wrong, we need to support what we preach with sound doctrine, but prayer penetrates where words won’t. Keep us updated as to what’s going on.
In Christ Michael
 
ANWK-

Everything Michael said is true - you can’t change someones heart, that’s the Holy Spirits job! Praying is a very good start.

However, you also can’t just be ignorant of your faith either. Seems God may be using this situation to teach you a thing or two!

You need to do a little research. Have you even gone to the Catholic.com homepage and chec ked out the Library? You’ll get an excellent and concise treatment of the topic. Here’s the link:
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Also, two books which are must reads are:

BORN FUNDAMENTALIST BORN AGAIN CATHOLIC by David Currie

CATHOLICISM AND FUNDAMENTALISM by Karl Keating

Neither is very difficult though the second is longer. Your knowledge of your faith will grow exponentially - and that will help you testify to it. One thing I can tell you from personal experience is to NOT jump into particular doctrine like Purgatory or Mary, but to start with the basics: Sola Scriptura - the “bible alone” This is often the big starting point for conversion when Protestants realize that just believing in the bible doesn’t quite work. Here are 4 good questions to ask someone who thinks they base their faith on the bible alone:
Using Scripture alone (either the OT or the NT ) please tell me:

1) Where does it say that the NT is supposed to have 27 books?
The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t! The “…Church of the Living God, which is the pillar and foundation of truth” (1Tim 3:15)
decided which books were inspired and which weren’t. That would be the Catholic Church
2) Where does it say that the books in the NT are supposed to be Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,…, Revelation?
3) Where does it say which version of the books we are to accept as authoritative? There was a version of the Gospel of Matthew that had 8 chapters of text, another with 18, and a third with 28.
**4) Where does it say which translation of the books we are to accept is the authoritative one?
**
Looking for Bible verses only. Be nice - how would Jesus approach the same person in this situation? Don’t forget He is with both of you when you gather in His name…
 
thanks for your inout gentlemen…

I have Karl Keating’s book… read it cover to cover quite a number of times. I have approached the discussion with solid biblical backup, but like i said in my first post, he’s either not buying it or choosing to deliberately misunderstand it.

and i agree that we should not get straight into discussions like Mary and Purgatory, its only because he asked me a specific question about purgatory that we went there in the first place…🙂

am trying to slowly steer the discussion to sola scriptura. its where i usually start discussions with Protestants because i feel that if we can even get them to think about sola scriptura and how unscriptural it is, it would cause just that shadow of a doubt to start with.

another point that i usually start with is the difference in the books of the 2 bibles…

ADRIAN
 
IF you are going to broach the subject of purgatory, you have to make clear to your friend that even in human-to-human relationships, forgiveness does not eliminate punishment. If I were to break a neighbor’s window in anger, only to return after cooling off and apologize, the neighbor could very likely accept my apology and forgive me (the spiritual damage to our relationship thus being repaired)…and then move right on to figuring out how I’m going to replace his window (to repair the physical consequences of my act). Even though God forgives us the sin of breaking His window, purgatory is there to make sure the window gets replaced even if we die before we finish. This explanation overlooks some of the other aspects of purgatory, but it brings out a difference (between spiritual and physical consequences) that Protestants often either fail to recognize or refuse to admit.
 
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