Need help - Infallibilty

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I don’t know how to answer this one from a prot…

Quote:

“The popes were fallible long before they were infallible. The church Counsel use to rule, not the popes. The were only figure heads. What the Church Counsel said was law. Roma Locuta est, causa finita est.”…

“When Pope Stephen tried to settle a baptismal controversy for the African Church and his view was rejected. Augustine says they were right to do so. This was a matter for the Church Counsel not for an individual. Later on in time, they made themselves infallible.”

Thanks!
 
I don’t know how to answer this one from a prot…

Quote:

“The popes were fallible long before they were infallible. The church Counsel use to rule, not the popes. The were only figure heads. What the Church Counsel said was law. Roma Locuta est, causa finita est.”…

“When Pope Stephen tried to settle a baptismal controversy for the African Church and his view was rejected. Augustine says they were right to do so. This was a matter for the Church Counsel not for an individual. Later on in time, they made themselves infallible.”

Thanks!
The opposite is true.
This article discusses it:

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9704eaw.asp

For more, see this

P.S. Write out the word “Protestant” out of respect for them. You probably would not like being described as a “Catho”.
 
Thanks DeFide,

Just in case this isn’t addressed in the article, I just ran across something about popes not being present in some of the early councils. Is this true? And if so what is our response to this. Also, are councils infallible too?

Thanks again.
 
Thanks DeFide,

Just in case this isn’t addressed in the article, I just ran across something about popes not being present in some of the early councils. Is this true? And if so what is our response to this. Also, are councils infallible too?

Thanks again.
If a pope cannot make it to a council, he must at least ratify the results to make it valid. If something on faith or morals is defined at the council for all the faithful to believe, it is an infallible decision… but notice this must happen in union with the Pope.
 
I don’t know how to answer this one from a prot…

Quote:

“The popes were fallible long before they were infallible. The church Counsel use to rule, not the popes. The were only figure heads. What the Church Counsel said was law. Roma Locuta est, causa finita est.”…

“When Pope Stephen tried to settle a baptismal controversy for the African Church and his view was rejected. Augustine says they were right to do so. This was a matter for the Church Counsel not for an individual. Later on in time, they made themselves infallible.”

Thanks!
Jesus himself tells us that we must receive spiritual regeneration through Baptism, and that without it we cannot save our souls. He says to Nicodemus: “Unless a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” (John 3:3 ff). When Nicodemus asks him: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?” Christ explains his meaning , without in any way diminishing its force, declaring solemnly" “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Naturally, what Christ had said so clearly the Fathers of the Church rrpeated, as occasion arose. Such occasions did arise through various heresies, which the Fathers were obliged to combat. There were the Cainites and the Quintillians in the second century, who held that faith alone was sufficient for salvation and that baptism was not necessary; there were the Manicheans, from the third century onwards, who regarded water as something evil in nature, and as such quite unsuited as a means of salvation; there were the Massalians, who regarded it as useless; and there were the Pelagians, against whom St. Augustine wrote, who regarded it as unnecessary. These latter, not recognizing the existence of original sin, inevitably regarded baptism as of no real necessity, but admitted its utility for the remission of actual sin and for facilitating one’s access to the Kingdom of Heaven.

These and all other errors on the necessity of baptism were resolutely condemned as soon as they ever showed themselves, as the Church always regarded baptism as of absolute necessity. In the controversy between St. Cyprian and Pope St. Stephen on the question of rebaptsing heretics it is taken for granted by all parties that baptism itself is absolutely necessary for salvation.

At a council of the bishops of Proconsular Africa and Numidia in the autumn of 255 A.D. it was declared that baptism administerd by heretics was null and void. St. Cyprian himself informed the Pope, St. Stephen, of the decision. Stephen, invoking the tradition of the Apostles, condemned the African custom and proclaimed the validity of baptism administered by heretics. He further threatened to break off ordinary relations with the recalcitrant African bishops if his decision was not accepted. Whether he ever put this threat into effect is not known. Apparently the question of excommunication never arose, as alarums and excursions of this kind between Rome and Africa were not uncommon, and it was not customary to resort to excommunication. Stephen’s decision, however, was not accepted, and two further councils in Africa, in the spring of 256 A.D. and on September 1, of the same year, in which the error was adhered to, made matters worse rather than better.

St. Cyprian’s error, however, did not die with him, but continued to create, not indeed an open breach, but a divergence between Rome and Africa. But the truth is great and it gradually prevailed. Thus, the Council of Arles in 314 A.D. declares that baptism conferred by heretics is valid, provided they administer it correctly as the Catholic Church does, and with the invocation of the Blessed Trinity. Again, a canon added to the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. declares that baptism administered by certain heretics, such as the Arians, Novatians, and others, is valid; whereas that administered by the Eunomians, Montanists, and Sabellians is invalid; because the latter do not administer the sacrament correctly with the formula of the Blessed Trinity. Finally, the victory of Rome was forever assured by the writings of St. Augustine, who developed the entire theological doctrine of this sacrament to such an extent that he left little indeed to be completed by his successors.
 
“Stephen’s decision, however, was not accepted, and two further councils in Africa, in the spring of 256 A.D. and on September 1, of the same year, in which the error was adhered to, made matters worse rather than better.”

Now my head’s spinning. 😦

How could they reject his decision if he was infallible? I’m so confused. :confused:
 
“The popes were fallible long before they were infallible. The church Counsel use to rule, not the popes. The were only figure heads. What the Church Counsel said was law. Roma Locuta est, causa finita est.”…
The question of who rules is not a question of papal infallibility. Recall that infallibility has to do with being preserved from error. It does not have to do with who’s ruling.
“When Pope Stephen tried to settle a baptismal controversy for the African Church and his view was rejected. Augustine says they were right to do so. This was a matter for the Church Counsel not for an individual. Later on in time, they made themselves infallible.”

  1. *]Pope’s are infallible when they speak Ex Cathedra. Did Pope St. Stephen do so? Since your friend is using this pope as an example, he has the burden of proof to show that Ex Cathedra conditions were present in this case. When he can satisfactorily demonstrate that then you can go to the next step.

    *]Here’s an analogy: the teaching that holy orders is reserved to men alone is infallible. Pope John Paul II’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis made that clear. Yet we can find a number of people who disagree.

    Does that disagreement prove that the Church is not infallible? Or, rather, does that merely show that you can always find people who dissent?

    Similarly, it shouldn’t surprise us that there were people who disagreed with Pope St. Stephen, even if he fulfilled the conditions for infallibility. If Pope Benedict were to speak Ex Cathedra today, you’d still find people who disagree with him. But since that disagreement is a question of authority, that wouldn’t even come close to refuting papal infallibility-- whether of Pope Benedict or of Pope St. Stephen.

    Many people confuse infallibility with impeccability. Your friend is confusing infallibility with papal authority.
 
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