Need help on this: "Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence."

[Gene_C]

Hi all,

I’ve come across this line of reasoning: Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence of Christ, therefore, the belief in the Real Presence was not unanimous. It was debated.

Any thoughts? Augustine’s wrote tons of words and I don’t know where to start.

Thanks and blessings,
Gene

 

[RyanL]

you might start here:
Augustine

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (*Explanations of the Psalms *33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ” (*Sermons *227 [A.D. 411]).

…

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction” (ibid., 272).

God bless,
RyanL

 

[Tantum_ergo]

They have to provide the burden of proof, don’t they? Show WHERE Augustine said that he did not believe in the Real Presence as a matter of faith and morals and taught it as a fully validated matter of Catholic theology. Show WHERE the “real presence” is actually debated among the magesterium as a matter of faith and morals and that non belief was considered OK, or “optional”. Show WHERE the idea even of debating the matter of faith and morals on the Real Presence or anything else somehow INVALIDATES the matter under discussion.

It’s a non issue. Even IF Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence at some point in time (quite obviously he didn’t believe before he became Christian, righit?), even IF he personally didn’t believe in it as it is understood in the 21st century, does the fact that Augustine “didn’t believe” or the fact that there was not a unanimous belief among the FALLIBLE men and women then (or now) somehow make the truth of the Real Presence UNTRUE?

 

[petra]

Gene C.:

Hi all,

I’ve come across this line of reasoning: Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence of Christ, therefore, the belief in the Real Presence was not unanimous. It was debated.

Any thoughts? Augustine’s wrote tons of words and I don’t know where to start.

Thanks and blessings,
Gene

Augstine did believe in the Real Presence. This is from a CA tract:

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ” (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
…

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction” (ibid., 272).

What sources of Augustine seem to indicate that he didn’t believe this? I know he changed his position on some issues later in his life, so the chronology of the particular writing is relevant.

 

[John_Henry]

Gene C.:

Hi all,

I’ve come across this line of reasoning: Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence of Christ, therefore, the belief in the Real Presence was not unanimous. It was debated.

Any thoughts? Augustine’s wrote tons of words and I don’t know where to start.

Thanks and blessings,
Gene

In addition to the quotes offered by someone else above, this comes up partly because of the typical Protestant either/or mentality. St. Augustine most certainly did believe that the bread and wine were symbolic of Christ’s body and blood. That’s because they are. But that is not all they are. They are also a fulfilled symbol. I.e., they convey what they signify. It can be symbolic and real.

 

[petra]

I see 3 of us were posting simultaneously!!

Tantum Ergo, I love your signature line! B16 could also be looked at as an energizing vitamin supplement for the life of the Church!

 

[Gene_C]

Hi all,

I posted my reply to my debater. He’s in Asia so I’ll have to wait until Wednesday for his reply.

Thanks for your help.

Gene

 

[thessalonian]

I believe it is in City of God that Augustine speaks of the elements as being “figurative”. In another place he speaks of the bread and wine in symbolic terms. Two understandings of the Eucharist that many Catholics don’t grasp are 1) With regard to the figurative quote from Augustine, what we percieve and eat is not physical human flesh. Therefore it is figurative. Secondly with regard to the symbolic understanding of Augustine (also Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria) that something was symbolic in the ECF did not prohibit it from being reality. Our Eucharist is symbolic of Christ’s physical flesh, yet it is the divine reality as well. We need to understand this. Protestants don’t run in to problems because they view the Eucharist as symbolic. Their problem is they think this excludes the reality.

This understanding is the only way you can put Augustines words together in all the places he speaks of the Eucharist (some listed above) and come to a consensus on what he believed. Coincidentally (not really a coincidence) it is consistent with Catholic teaching today.

Blessings

 

[PhilVaz]

Go to Google, type

Augustine Eucharist

Hooray, I’m still #1.

Covers about all you need, there are symbolical sounding statements in St. Augustine, but he’s very literal otherwise. Though not as far as transubstantiation which approximates the “conversion” view held by the eastern Fathers, and in the west by St. Ambrose. Real Presence definitely, but transubstantiation no.

Phil P

 

[GKB_Protasius]

“I’ve come across this line of reasoning: Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence of Christ, therefore, the belief in the Real Presence was not unanimous. It was debated.”

I don’t know if this helps, but is the debate mentioned here in reference to debating different definitions that all accepted the real precense in some form?

The Trinity was hotly debated as well!
peace in Christ,
Frank

 

[Gene_C]

Hi Phil,

Yesterday I typed in St. Augustine on the Eucharist into Yahoo and, guess what, you were first in line. I used your defenses in my response. Thanks for the excellent research!

Blessings,
Gene