Need help on William Webster's article

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Hi everyone,

was having an email discussion with some Protestants regarding Peter the rock and one of them “cut and paste” William Webster’s article An Historical Refutation of the Claims of Roman Catholicism
******(Includes a Critique of Jesus, Peter and the Keys) By William Webster.

here’s the article on the web.

the-highway.com/Matt16.18_Webster.html

It’s really lengthy and will take me ages to plough through his document. anyone has access to any ready online rebuttal to this document, please help me by directing me to the website…

Thanks guys!!
 
Hi friends,

I really need help with this article… If anyone has found anything on the web that rebutts this article, please let me know where to find it… thanks a bunch.

Regards
ADRIAN
 
Hey, I actually kinda know Wiliam Webster (well, we email eachother). I’ll read that article and see what he’s saying.
 
Steve Ray took care of Webster about 5 years ago, in a series of articles on his book Upon This Rock.

I wish there were HTML versions so I could link directly, but for some reason his webmaster turned them all into .doc version, but still readable.

SEE ALL THESE ARTICLES FROM STEVE RAY

Phil P
 
In addition you may want to check the articles at my site on Jesus, Peter, and the Keys

Dave Palm and Robert Sungenis back in 1996 (when book was published) wrote a series of articles responding to James White on that book. Quite good.

And of course there is the

John Chapman series on the Papacy which is awesome

Chapman covers all the main Fathers on the early Papacy and/or Peter: Cyprian, Augustine, Chrysostom, Jerome, Athanasius, etc.

Phil P
 
I just stumbled across this thread while searching for something else. But I did a bit of work on this topic a couple of years ago, which I’ve copied and pasted below. Perhaps it might be of some help. (Sorry if it’s not!). Also of course I’m some months behind the 8-ball. 🙂

==================

Hi guys

With this debate about the Patristic exegesis of Matthew 16:18 and which view is the “majority” / “unanimous consent” of the Fathers, I thought I’d do what I could to get some figures based on the information provided and some other resources.

Step 1:

First I thought I’d look at the 38-volume edition of the Early Church Fathers (the Eerdman’s Reprint of the Edinburgh Edition) of which I’m fortunate enough to have the Logos electronic version on CD-ROM. Logos has a cool search function where you can type in a Scripture reference and it will return all the places that verse is referred to, based I think on the comprehensive footnotes in the original. So I typed in REF(Matt 16:18) to the search function and I got 61 hits. I went through them and categorised them into citations where Peter is seen as the rock, citations where something else besides Peter is identified as the rock, and citations that don’t really address the issue. Here is what I found:

Peter is the Rock: 17 citations from 9 Fathers

Tertullian (3)

Hippolytus (1)

Cyprian (1)

Pseudo-Clementine (1)

Origen (4) (Mostly saying Peter is the rock, but not Peter only)

Augustine (2) (One is Augustine quoting from Cyprian)

Jerome (2)

Ambrose (1)

Leo the Great (2)

Note that if in the context of Matthew 16:18 Peter is called “foundation” or it says the church was “founded on Peter” or “built on Peter”, then I have counted that as being an equation of Peter as the rock, since it is on the rock that Christ said he would build his church.

The Rock is something else, not Peter: 4 citations from 2 Fathers

Augustine (3) - Says the rock is (a) our faith; (b) Christ; (c) Peter’s confession. Note that he also appears in the list above.

Chrysostom (1) - Rock is Peter’s confession

There were also 40 citations of Matthew 16:18 that don’t deal with who the rock is.

I’ve included quotes at the end of this message so you can verify my count if you’re interested. Obviously even though 38 volumes is a lot of material, it’s a long way short of being the entire corpus of the Fathers, but I thought that it would be a good representative work as its the one most easily accessible to people (it’s on the web at ccel.org for example). Anyway, based on this survey which is admittedly only a sample of all the writings and is also totally dependent on the search functionality of Logos, we can see that the “majority” view is that Peter is the rock.
 
Continuing…
Step 2:

Once I did that, I thought it might be good to explore the citations from William Webster that Ronnie has provided (christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html) and see how they matched up with those in Butler et al’s ‘Jesus, Peter & the Keys’ (which Matthew has already referred to and which again I am fortunate enough to have a copy of).

Webster’s page is very long so I didn’t read every citation. I quickly skimmed it to get an idea of the structure (it really helped that the sources are in alphabetical order) and then I mainly worked off the header at the top, which lists all the sources.

From that header I could identify 49 Church Fathers or theologians that he was citing. Again, I didn’t read his whole page, I just made a list of each Father and then looked in JPK to see if there was a citation there where the same Father identified Peter as the rock. What I found was that of Webster’s 49 sources, I found 28 in JPK where they also identify Peter as the rock (details are below). Again, this represents a majority for the “Peter is the rock” position, and is a lot better than Ronnie’s post makes out, especially the bit about how Catholics “squeeeeeeeeze a few doubtful quotes here and there from a couple of the fathers” (sorry to talk about you in the third person Ronnie, no offense intended here).

Further, JPK has citations from 57 sources in its section on St. Peter as the Rock and Key Holder of Matthew 16-19. Not all of these are about the rock, as some are just about the keys, but the ones that identify Peter as the rock which are not mentioned by Webster are Hippolytus, Juvencus, Zeno of Africa, Siricius, Council of Ephesus, Leo, Council of Chalcedon, Felix, and Agatho. There’s also Proclus (only implicitly) and Sechnall (indirectly). That’s 9 not counting the last 2. There’s also the Pseudo-Clementine quote that I found.

So when you add it up you’ve got 21 of Webster’s Fathers who say that the rock is something besides Peter (which of course is not necessarily the same as saying the rock is NOT Peter, although not having read the paper in detail I don’t know how many definitively exclude the Peter = rock interpretation), and 28 who say the rock IS Peter or words to that effect, plus another 10 sources which Webster didn’t include.

Obviously that’s again a majority for the “Peter is the rock” camp, plus of course there’s the significant overlap which shows that interpretations of Matthew 16:18 are not necessarily exclusive (and I think this is a really important point). This is epitomised by St Augustine, and also, fittingly enough, by the Catechism of the Catholic Church (see #424, #552, #586 for example).
 
I keep gettiing caught out by the length restrictions…

====

When I started doing this some hours ago (it’s now 2am local time, so please pardon any minor errors in my addition!) I had little idea what I would find, but having done it I am pleasantly surprised by how well the Catholic position holds up against Ronnie’s claims, with the majority being the Catholic view in both cases. Note though that I am NOT a patristics scholar, I can just use search functions and indexes. Again remember that even this extended survey is only a look at secondary sources and therefore has certain limitations - but the results are interesting nonetheless!

If anyone wants further context or JPK page numbers (or even, if you give me some time, page scans of JPK) just let me know.

Hopefully this analysis is of some use to us all. God bless,
 
Finishing…

==============================

Below is the list of ecclesiastical writers from Webster’s page. I have put a “Y” (for “Yes”) next to each one that also has a “Peter is the rock” interpretation of Matthew 16:18 in JPK. I was most of the way through when I realised I should have put page numbers, but I can’t be bothered now. If anyone wants them, let me know.

Webster’s List
  1. Augustine, Y
  2. Ambrose, Y
  3. Ambrosiaster,
  4. Aphraates, Y
  5. Apostolical Constitutions,
  6. Asterius, Y
  7. Athanasius, (Calls Rome “apostolic throne” - JPK 311)
  8. Basil the Great, Y
  9. Basil of Seleucia, (Calls Peter coryphaeus - JPK 332)
  10. Bede, (calls Peter keyholder - JPK 276-277)
  11. Cassiodorus,
  12. Cassian (John), (calls Peter keyholder - JPK 258)
  13. Chrysostom(John), Y
  14. Chrysologus (Peter), Y
  15. Cyprian, Y
  16. Cyril of Alexandria, Y
  17. Cyril of Jerusalem, (calls Peter keyholder - JPK 233)
  18. Didymus the Blind, Y
  19. Epiphanius, Y
  20. Ephrem Syrus, Y
  21. Eusebius, (Calls Peter coryphaeus - JPK 224)
  22. Firmicus Maternus,
  23. Firmilian, Y
  24. Fulgentius, (Holds primacy of Roman Church, JPK 346)
  25. Gaudentius of Brescia,
  26. Gregory the Great, Y
  27. Gregory Nazianzen, Y
  28. Gregory of Nyssa, Y
  29. Hilary of Poitiers, Y
  30. Ignatius,
  31. Isidore of Pelusium,
  32. Isidore of Seville,
  33. James of Nisbis, Y
  34. Jerome, Y
  35. John of Damascus, Y
  36. Maximus of Turin, Y
  37. Nilus of Ancyra, (Calls Peter the head of the choir of the apostles - JPK 332)
  38. Origen, Y
  39. Pacian, Y
  40. Palladius of Helenopolis,
  41. Paschasius Radbertus,
  42. Paul of Emessa,
  43. Paul Orosius, Y
  44. Paulinus of Nola, Y
  45. Prosper of Aquitaine, Y
  46. Tertullian, Y
  47. Theodoret, Y (indirectly)
  48. Comments of 6th Century Palestinian and Syriac Clergy from a Letter to Emperor Justin,
  49. Comments of Chrysostom, Cyril or Origen falsely attributed to Victor of Antioch
 
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