Need Help: Sexuality Issues

[pseudoanselm]

Hello:

I’m at a cross roads right now and I need some wise advice from those of you who are both faithfully Catholic and also acquainted and sympathetic with the complexities of human psychology. What I am going to do is tell you my experience and then ask some questions. Your feedback will be MUCH appreciated. Be warned, I’m going to reveal the details of my sexual experience b/c I want REAL help and REAL answers to my questions.

First, I accept the notion that sexuality is primarily a function of physiology. I mean that from the physiological standpoint just about every human being is heterosexual. You’re either male or female and thus biologically oriented toward the opposite sex. So, I pretty much follow Catholic thought on that score. I’m heterosexual.

However, I have to admit that my “subjective” experience on the level of sexual desire has been anything but clear. Let me explain. From my teenage years to the present (I’m 37), I have literally experienced “mixed” sexual tendencies. I have often wondered on a subjective level whether I’m gay, bi-sexual, or heterosexual. If I were to qualitatively describe my subjective sexual condition, I’d have to describe myself as bi-sexual.

In a nutshell, I fantasize about men of one very specific body type and about women of various body types. I find that that I am attracted physically to many female body types and only one male type. But, I also find that I’m attracted more to that one rare male body type than to any of the various female body types.

So, as you can see, it’s not very easy for me, on a purely subjective level, to identify my sexuality. I could justify calling myself gay, bisexual, or hetero b/c I experience all of it. Of course, if you met me, you’d assume right away I’m totally heterosexual b/c I’m very masculine.

Let me also say that I know of no environmental cause of the same sex desires that I have. So, I’m somewhat partial to the idea that subjective sexuality has a genetic basis. In other words, this just happened to me. I wasn’t abused as a kid or anything like that.

Now that I’ve told you all this, I have some questions.

First, should I pursue marriage or just stay single & chaste? I feel it will be my obligation to share this information with my future spouse. If she’s confident that I’m physically attracted to her and that I’m a faithful person, in spite of my condition, is that enough? You hear about all these marriages of gay/bisexual men marrying women only to end in disaster. I don’t want that to happen. Of course, I’m sure there are success stories also. But, you never hear about those in the media. Also, I don’t think men talk about it.

Second, is changing subjective sexual disposition REALLY possible? Isn’t it more realistic that this is a cross that some must bear and struggle with as long as they live? I’m beginning to think this is the case. Now, mind you, I have gone through long periods of repressing sexual activity via chastity. But, I’ve never been able to change the object of my sexual desires. Then again, maybe the same sex attractions I have are due to some other factor I’m unaware of. I don’t know. What do you all think?

Well that’s it. Please share your feedback. What I want to do is be totally honest with myself so that I best know how to live out my faith authentically. Maybe some of you have insights I haven’t thought of yet.

 

[turtle18]

It might help to know what type of body images are you attracted to? Is it a “beefcake” man. It is a “Barbie” woman? Does the woman have to be sexy? Does the man have to be a stud?

If these are the cases, I would say you’ve been influenced by typical media sterotypes of what is sexy. Are you sure you just don’t have envy of these men because you want to look like them? Envying someone’s physical attributes can very easily lead one to homosexual tendencies when in fact, you just wish you’d look like that to make yourself (supposdely) more appealing to the opposite sex.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Only you will know through discenment whether God is calling you to celibacy or not. We are ALL called to chaste lives.

I suggest you explore these issues with a Christian counselor.

Lastly, the issue of being attracted to different people does not preclude marriage in the following sense. The bi sexual attraction aside, when we marry we marry and are committed to ONE person. It really does not matter that we may feel attraction for other women. We are called to live a life of dedication to that ONE person. If you marry a women you do not decide to leave her because a new women peaks your interest or has (as you note) a body type that attracts you. In the same sense, if you have as you say bi sexual feelings, you do not indulge that fantasy and leave your spouse or cheat on them. Again, you are called to live a chaste life with that ONE woman.

I urge you to seek guidance from a trusted spiritual source to sort this out.

 

[pseudoanselm]

<It might help to know what type of body images are you attracted to? Is it a “beefcake” man. It is a “Barbie” woman? Does the woman have to be sexy? Does the man have to be a stud?>

Well, it’s really pretty weird with me. I wouldn’t share this information except on an anonymous message board or in counseling. It’s pretty weird. I’ll tell you this much. It’s not “beefcake” or “stud” man.

I’ll go into details of the male attraction if you want me to but only if you think it will help you give me better advice.

<If these are the cases, I would say you’ve been influenced by typical media sterotypes of what is sexy.>

Well, I can tell you that my tastes regarding female attractivness are not totally conventional, but they’re not “out there” either. I’m attracted to big, heavy set women (not fat). I’m also attracted to athletic women with muscle tone. I think I’m within the realm of normal tastes when it comes to women, but I’m not really attracted to the conventional model on magazine covers.

<Are you sure you just don’t have envy of these men because you want to look like them? Envying someone’s physical attributes can very easily lead one to homosexual tendencies when in fact, you just wish you’d look like that to make yourself (supposdely) more appealing to the opposite sex.>

I can assure you that’s not the case. I’m pretty secure with my physical looks. I really don’t envy the looks of the men I’m attracted to. It’s really hard to describe, but I will go into detail if you want.

Basically, my concern is with my vocation. Personally, I feel confident that I can marry a woman and provide for her sexual needs. Of course, I’ll have to find not only an attractive woman but a practicing Catholic one to boot.

Would I tell her about this gay stuff? Or is it even necessary? If you cheat on your spouse it doesn’t really matter who it’s with. You destroy the marriage whether you cheat with a man or a woman. So maybe you just pledge your fidelity and leave the rest a secret? I don’t know.

 

[pseudoanselm]

Agreed. Right now, I’m just a single guy in Chicago, working hard and trying to meet people. We’ll see what happens.

You know what, I started out in spiritual direction and my director referred me to a counselor who was also a priest. I was a bit miffed the spiritual director didn’t take my case upon himself given that he is highly respected. I don’t understand why spiritual directors are so quick to refer. It’s not like I had a mental illness or anything.

As for the couselor, I met with him for about 8 sessions, once/month and I got some good out of it. Of course, it was $100 a session and I didn’t think I needed to continue at that rate. But, their rule was that you had to meet at least once/month. So, I cancelled.

In sum, I’ve been there and done that. What I’d like to do is just get feedback from solid Catholic people who understand some psychology. And, maybe if there are people who have similar backgrounds as me, they can share their insights on what to do. If I feel I need to pursue counseling again, I’ll do it.

<In the same sense, if you have as you say bi sexual feelings, you do not indulge that fantasy and leave your spouse or cheat on them. Again, you are called to live a chaste life with that ONE woman.>

Yes. That’s why fidelity is the real issue for me. Whether your bi-sexual or heterosexual, if you can’t be faithful to one spouse then you’re just not ready for marriage, period. But, would I be obliged to tell her about this side of me?

 

[kristie_m]

I would say yes. You have an obligation to be honest to your potential spouse about your entire being…including sexual history/orientation. Without all the facts, she wouldn’t really know who she was marrying. Then you’d have this big secret that you’d want to keep from her. Not the best basis for a relationship.

I can tell you, from my own observations, that there are folks out there who have had this very discussion with their potential mates and were met with understanding, compassion, and a great deal of respect. It’s not an easy conversation to have. But if God is calling you to marriage, He will send you a wife that will love you regardless of your issues.

 

[Cloisters]

Not being up front about it with a potential spouse would possibly be grounds for an annulment later on.

If it were me, I’d ask that you go to confession, and ask for this to be healed. I would not be comfortable marrying someone who had such tendencies. I consider any and all inclinations to same-sex stuff to be of the devil, and will guide anyone asking for help to the confessional.

I have been married for 17 and a half years now, and physical attributes had nothing to do with the attraction. Actually, that’s cheapening the person–to be attracted to them only on the physical. IMHO, these attractions you’ve described is also probably satanic in origin, and is taking your attention off the real issue–holiness.

“Give me my spouse or give me peace!” should be your prayer.

Spiritual directors direct your journey to God. They always refer out to counselors because they aren’t qualified to do that job.

Blessings,
Cloisters

 

[SilentKnight]

Anselm,

I agree with you that sexuality is primarily physiological, though, it appears I may disagree with the conclusions one should draw from this.

Let me be clear from the outset that Catholic teaching is correct - sexual activity is properly exercised only by lawfully wedded spouses. If one has strong homosexual tendencies, this means that they need to live a chaste, committed single life either all their lives or until this is healed (if it is ever healed).

This established, sexual orientation is not black and white but a matter of some color and degree. It is normal, for example, for teenagers more than anyone else to experience strong transient homosexual feelings at various stages in their development. The nature of this is typically not spiritual (temptation from the devil - though, the devil may certainly attempt to exacerbate the temptation) but physiological. For reasons that I cannot articulate too well because I am not a scientist, homosexual “thoughts”, “desires”, etc. will continue to come and go throughout everyone’s life. The desires/thoughts are fleeting and simply not acknowledged by most (they don’t really need to be - what purpose would this serve?), but they’re there.

In many people, this is of no consequence. A thought different from the conventional comes, a thought goes and it’s very quickly on with life. But in others, these thoughts and feelings are not quite so transient. And I’m not referring to those who are fully homosexual.

To put this into numbers to illustrate - Most people are, in a real manner of speaking, not 100% heterosexual, but 99% or 99.5% heterosexual, that remaining .5 or 1%, as I mentioned, whistling through here, whistling through there, ultimately in a way that is of little to no signifcance. Then there are others with stronger tendencies, who are say, 90% heterosexual and 10% homosexual. Still others are 50/50 and yet others 99% homosexual and 1% heterosexual.

Some who have strong homosexual tendencies can be healed of these. Others cannot. I won’t bother getting into why in this particular thread (at least not now). Suffice it to say for now, Anselm, that what you need to do about this, and whether or not you need to disclose it to a potential spouse depends in large part on how much it really “compels” or bothers you. Knowing that sexuality is a matter of degree and that some homosexual thoughts and feelings here and there are normal, does this “free” you? Or are the thoughts and feelings you have strong enough that you are worried that life married to a woman would be unfulfilling?

Further more, at age 37 now, my* first* question to you would be - How has single life been for you thus far? If you’re living as chastely as you can and it’s been miserable, then, yes, I would continue to explore this issue in an attempt to seek resolution. But, if, on the other hand, at 37, you are actually quite happy with single life (and simply look at marriage because societal pressures suggest that you’re “supposed to”, you’re “not supposed to” be 37 and single), I would revisit that and consider remaining in a committed single state regardless of your issues of orientation.

I hope this has helped.

Peace to you,

SK

 

[v3orb]

First, I accept the notion that sexuality is primarily a function of physiology. I mean that from the physiological standpoint just about every human being is heterosexual. You’re either male or female and thus biologically oriented toward the opposite sex. So, I pretty much follow Catholic thought on that score. I’m heterosexual.

However, I have to admit that my “subjective” experience on the level of sexual desire has been anything but clear. Let me explain. From my teenage years to the present (I’m 37), I have literally experienced “mixed” sexual tendencies. I have often wondered on a subjective level whether I’m gay, bi-sexual, or heterosexual. If I were to qualitatively describe my subjective sexual condition, I’d have to describe myself as bi-sexual.

In a nutshell, I fantasize about men of one very specific body type and about women of various body types. I find that that I am attracted physically to many female body types and only one male type. But, I also find that I’m attracted more to that one rare male body type than to any of the various female body types.

So, as you can see, it’s not very easy for me, on a purely subjective level, to identify my sexuality. I could justify calling myself gay, bisexual, or hetero b/c I experience all of it. Of course, if you met me, you’d assume right away I’m totally heterosexual b/c I’m very masculine.

Hey I’ll try to answer all your questions honestly and straightforwardly. If you want to contact me by PM, feel free to do so at any time if you have more questions or want to talk about something related.

First off, it’s not important that you label yourself as straight, or one of the many psuedonyms for gay or bisexual (actually, many Catholics avoid doing so, probably not to box themselves into a specific sexuality, but society is very label-oriented). You know what you are attracted to, and that is enough.

How you act has absolutely nothing to do with attraction to the opposite sex or the same sex. There are “straight-acting” gay guys and “gay-acting” straight guys, but that doesn’t change whether they are heterosexual or homosexual.

Let me also say that I know of no environmental cause of the same sex desires that I have. So, I’m somewhat partial to the idea that subjective sexuality has a genetic basis. In other words, this just happened to me. I wasn’t abused as a kid or anything like that.

It is common belief now that the part of environment outside the womb plays very little to no part in a person’s future sexual identity. Even if you had been abused, had overprotective parents, etc. it would play very little part in who you are today from a sexual standpoint.

First, should I pursue marriage or just stay single & chaste? I feel it will be my obligation to share this information with my future spouse. If she’s confident that I’m physically attracted to her and that I’m a faithful person, in spite of my condition, is that enough? You hear about all these marriages of gay/bisexual men marrying women only to end in disaster. I don’t want that to happen. Of course, I’m sure there are success stories also. But, you never hear about those in the media. Also, I don’t think men talk about it.

If you feel that you have an attraction to women, then why not pursue it? If, deep in your heart, you really have no attraction to the opposite sex, it may be better for you to consider living single. Marriage, like any other vocation, is not to be taken lightly.

There are very few or no really happy married gay men, especially within the Catholic faith. By marrying, they are not only forgetting themselves, but also are setting themselves up for failure, and to hurt the woman in the relationship.

Second, is changing subjective sexual disposition REALLY possible? Isn’t it more realistic that this is a cross that some must bear and struggle with as long as they live? I’m beginning to think this is the case. Now, mind you, I have gone through long periods of repressing sexual activity via chastity. But, I’ve never been able to change the object of my sexual desires. Then again, maybe the same sex attractions I have are due to some other factor I’m unaware of. I don’t know. What do you all think?

Let me get this clear: there is absolutely no way to change sexuality, only to suppress it and distort it. Please, please, please do not have anything to do with ex-gay “ministries” or “therapy” centers. All they do is rip apart a person’s soul and replace it with a ghost of who they were. I have a friend who’s parents sent him to a “reparative” therapy center, where he was not only unchanged in orientation, but also suffered shock treatment, hard labor and other horrors. His sexual orientation is not changed, but the experience will haunt him all his life. These people are nothing but violent destructors of human dignity and character.

Please contact me through PM or chat if you have more questions or want to get into details on this or catholic teaching etc - I’m absolutely willing to help.

~alex

 

[pseudoanselm]

Not being up front about it with a potential spouse would possibly be grounds for an annulment later on.>

Agreed.

<If it were me, I’d ask that you go to confession, and ask for this to be healed. I would not be comfortable marrying someone who had such tendencies. I consider any and all inclinations to same-sex stuff to be of the devil, and will guide anyone asking for help to the confessional.>

I will mentioned the homosexual aspect of my sins from now on in confession. Usually, I just confess the porn or masturbation and leave it at that.

As, to the satanic origin of this, I can’t say. I don’t think it matters where a gravely disordered action comes from.

<I have been married for 17 and a half years now, and physical attributes had nothing to do with the attraction. Actually, that’s cheapening the person–to be attracted to them only on the physical.>

I find that hard to believe. Of course physical attraction isn’t everthing and love goes way beyond that. But, it’s part of human nature and nothing to be ashamed of either.

“Give me my spouse or give me peace!” should be your prayer.

<Spiritual directors direct your journey to God. They always refer out to counselors because they aren’t qualified to do that job.>

I just think my case wasn’t so out of the scope of spiritual direction that I needed a referral. And, if I’m being attacked by Satan, don’t you think spritual direction would be the proper place to handle this instead of a counselor?

 

[Schweny]

Hello,

After reading some of the replies there are a few I would agree with, and many that I would not. I would encourage you to check out non pop-psychology on this one. It is easy to blame things on a biological problem, but the truth is that the APA (American Psychological Association) recognized homosexuality as a mental disorder until very recently where they took it out of the books due to political pressure and scientific “findings” which are now appearing to not hold as much weight as they thought. Don’t take my word on this though, look up the history yourself.

I would suggest checking out some of the literature on the NARTH website narth.com NARTH deals with reparative therapy which was above my post dis-credited. However, it’s not all bad. There are people who have received a good amount of healing through this type of therapy. Dr. Joseph Nicolosi has done a tremendous amount of research in this area and does not follow the popular norms. If you want a different opinion on a more academic level I would suggest his book * Reparitive Therapy of the Male Homosexual*

I am no expert on the subject, I am only trying to share what I have learned in my research which may give you some other sources to look to. Peace, Love and Unity. God Bless

 

[pseudoanselm]

<I would suggest checking out some of the literature on the NARTH website narth.com NARTH deals with reparative therapy which was above my post dis-credited. However, it’s not all bad.>

Thanks for the reply. One of my openly gay friends, like most gay activists, adamantly denies the effectiveness of reparative therapy.

Unfortunately, I’m woefully ignorant on the subject and need to do my homework. I will check out NARTH learn more and maybe try to see a counselor for this purpose.

I have a few theories as to why I may experience same sex attractions but I don’t know whether they hold water or not. Honestly, I have a hard time with the idea that homosexuality is a treatable and preventable disorder.

It’s probably b/c I’m one of those guys who as a kid “experimented”, innocently enough of course, with homosexuality. Psychologists know this isn’t uncommon among youth. So, I’m finding it hard to believe there is not a genetic component to this. Of course, genetic or not, it doesn’t mean homosexuality isn’t a disordered desire.

 

[Schweny]

Another thing you may want to check out is the courage apostate. It is fully endorsed by the Vatican it is a group which helps those struggling with same sex attraction within the Catholic Church. Their website is: couragerc.net/

To be completely honest so did I. I am still not 100% certain. There are so many differing views on it. One the issues addressed in Dr. Nicolosis’ book is that not all people who struggle with homosexuality are able to be treated. Reparative therapy does not work for everyone. trying to remember what I read…Some people fully recover, others experience some recovery, and there is a group that experiences little to no recovery. This does not mean however that it is impossible. Just that some peoples situations are different and each persons individual situation needs to be taken into account. There is no “miracle cure” for homosexuality. Which I think lends more to the idea that it is not biological. If it was, we with modern science should be able to find the source. (just something to think about)

I know many people who don’t know how to feel that homosexuality is anything but biological because they “didn’t choose it” or “just discovered they were attracted to the same sex” reflecting the same way someone discovers they are attracted to the opposite sex making it seem like there is no other option other than " I was born this way" I however have a hard time accepting that it is a biological disorder. There is a lot of research out there which is blacked out by popular psychology proposing other options than just “you have the gay gene”

<It’s probably b/c I’m one of those guys who as a kid “experimented”, innocently enough of course, with homosexuality. >
So many youth experiment with others of the same sex when they are young, at least that is what I have been told by many people in a counseling/psychological field when talking about this, which it seems you have also heard <Psychologists know this isn’t uncommon among youth.> That being the case, then there are many who come out of that experience with a heterosexual orientation. So if I understand what you are saying then it must go back to before the experamentation, which is why you have a hard time believing it’s not biological. Please correct me if I am reading what you have said wrong.

From what I have read, if one subscribes to the nurture over nature theory, sexual orientation can be influenced as early as 2 months old. Dr. Nicolosis’ book talks about this also. With a young male needing attention from his father and not receiving it when he was very, very young. That can create a sense of needing to receive ones masculinity from another man other than the father, which can become sexualized aka homosexual attraction. This is a rough sketch of the idea, but in my opinion it makes sense how so many people can say “I don’t remember having a bad relationship with my father/mother, being molested, or anything bad happening sexually when I was young; therefore it must be biological” if one subscribes to this theory then it could have happened at such a young age that one couldn’t possibly remember it, and it could just seem like it has been there forever and is biological.

<Of course, genetic or not, it doesn’t mean homosexuality isn’t a disordered desire.> Absolutely! What that also means however is that it is a cross, and it can be a darn big and heavy one at that. The truth is though that there is hope and life abundantly in Christ Jesus. Simply because a man or woman struggles with same sex attraction doesn’t mean they can’t live a full, functional, healthy life striving for holiness. I know you started this thread with questions, and I wish I could answer some of those, but the truth is that only you, with the help of a counselor and/or spiritual director will be able to make some of those decisions. Some personal experience that may/may not help (take it for what it’s worth.) I know a man who has recently been able to realize he struggles with homosexual attraction. He denied it before which lead to a very unhealthy life. He is also attracted to women though, but he very much struggles with homosexual attraction. He has decided to wait to pursue dating/marriage until he has more fully dealt with the issues he is facing now (realizing and coming to terms with the fact that this is really what/how he feels) Then, he hopes to be able to more fully discern where God is calling him. I don’t know where you are at, I don’t know what/how you have dealt with it and what you feel. I can only offer my support in prayer and reassurance that you are not alone, and there is hope!!! God Bless you my brother. I will be praying for you.

 

[peduzzi89]

Question- would you mind disclosing your age?I am only saying this because I wonder ow far along you are in your development. Less than a year ago, I thought my sexual orientation was one thing and now it’s completely different…I think I may have had a similar situation as you, so I can probably relate.