Need help with a wedding situation

[Gorgias]

I said I would only address the topic if the thread were split.

I’ll have to remember that tactic the next time I’m unable to defend an assertion I’ve posted here.

Peace,
G.

 

[runningdude]

I’ll have to remember that tactic the next time I’m unable to defend an assertion I’ve posted here.

Peace,
G.

If you want a cheap shot, I won’t bother. If you want a serious discussion, then I provided a simple way to show that.

If you insist though, I will first point out that I never claimed the divorced man in this scenario was in a previously invalid marriage. I said he could have been, but there is no evidence either way.

Consider an unmarried man who attempts to marry a divorced women. That marriage could reasonably be considered null. If they divorced and he attempted to marry a truly unmarried women, the second attempt could still be a valid marriage, because the first attempt was unlawful. Since there is no tribunal outside the Catholic Church, such an individual has no way of knowing for sure.

If you wish to continue, please request the thread be split.

 

[angell1]

If you want a cheap shot, I won’t bother. If you want a serious discussion, then I provided a simple way to show that.

If you insist though, I will first point out that I never claimed the divorced man in this scenario was in a previously invalid marriage. I said he could have been, but there is no evidence either way.

Consider an unmarried man who attempts to marry a divorced women. That marriage could reasonably be considered null. If they divorced and he attempted to marry a truly unmarried women, the second attempt could still be a valid marriage, because the first attempt was unlawful. Since there is no tribunal outside the Catholic Church, such an individual has no way of knowing for sure.

If you wish to continue, please request the thread be split.

well i did talk to a priest about it and he said it wouldn’t be a sin if i did attend. which i don’t really understand why he would have said that. he’s the one who runs the marriage tribunal too so i’m confused

 

[Betheone]

well i did talk to a priest about it and he said it wouldn’t be a sin if i did attend. which i don’t really understand why he would have said that. he’s the one who runs the marriage tribunal too so i’m confused

I don’t have a theological explanation for why your priest told you it would not be a sin on your part to attend the wedding. But I can tell you are somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of attending. At this point, you will have to do some praying and reflecting on which would be more acceptable to you, personally and morally. Do you allow yourself to promote sinful behavior by attending? Or do you risk losing the acquaintance of your teammate by declining the wedding invitation?

I pray you will do what is right both for yourself and your teammate.

 

[runningdude]

well i did talk to a priest about it and he said it wouldn’t be a sin if i did attend. which i don’t really understand why he would have said that. he’s the one who runs the marriage tribunal too so i’m confused

Here is a post from another apologist that may be helpful: “What are the rules for wedding attendance”.

Quoted in part (though I recommend reading the whole):
Michelle Arnold:

…
The Church does not explicitly forbid Catholics from attending presumptively-invalid marriages. Catholics must use their own prudential judgment in making the decision, keeping in mind the need to uphold the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of marriage. One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have. So, for example, you might decide to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who is expecting a child; but decline to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who have engaged in adultery and destroyed previous marriages and families.
…

Since we do not know the circumstances of the groom’s divorce, it is a matter of judgement as to whether you attend. She elsewhere says it is an act of mercy to allow friends and family members to attend presumptively invalid marriages, to avoid broken relationships that may discourage someone from returning to the church.

Michelle also recommends not participating at a bridesmaid/best man.

 

[runningdude]

You do not understand Fr. Grondin’s post. You are trying to infer something that is just not there. All people are bound to the doctrine of indissolubility of marriage! It is even easier for non-Catholics to enter into valid marriages, because they are not bound to observe canonical form like us. Therefore, a non-Catholic who has been married once is almost always validly married, and after a divorce may not attempt remarriage at all, even outside the Catholic Church, without a declaration of nullity from her.

I would argue that the purpose of Canon Law is specifically to make it easier for Catholics to enter a presumably valid marriage rather than impede them, by actively identifying and addressing any impediments.

There are numerous scenarios which could easily produce a presumptively invalid non-Catholic marriage:

• Non-married woman attempting to marry a divorced man
• Exchange of “vows” in a drunken stupor at a wedding chapel
• Coercion/threats of violence
• etc.

While any freely exchanged vows will produce a valid marriage, if any of these scenarios exists, then the vows (and marriage) are likely invalid. In such cases, divorce or civil annulment is the responsible choice.

There is no way of knowing with certainty of the invalidity without the marriage tribunal, but non-Catholics are not obliged to use it. An attempt at a “second” marriage may very well produce a valid marriage given the right circumstance. The Catholic Church allows prudential judgement in attending such weddings.

Again, I do not claim that any of these scenarios apply to the OP’s situation. I only point out that there could be mitigating circumstances.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

do you guys have any advice? on the one hand, i don’t want to approve of sin, on the other, i don’t want ot give off a holier than thou attitude or cause a huge fuss.

Don’t fuss. Go to the wedding. Be gracious. Pray. God’s plan unfolds for different people in different ways. Sometimes he allows us to make mistakes in order to learn. It’s not our job to fix, manage, or control others. Our job is to love them and treat them with dignity.

Enjoy the wedding. Maybe you’ll meet your future spouse there.

 

[angell1]

I don’t have a theological explanation for why your priest told you it would not be a sin on your part to attend the wedding. But I can tell you are somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of attending. At this point, you will have to do some praying and reflecting on which would be more acceptable to you, personally and morally. Do you allow yourself to promote sinful behavior by attending? Or do you risk losing the acquaintance of your teammate by declining the wedding invitation?

I pray you will do what is right both for yourself and your teammate.

that’s exactly it, i feel stuck between a rock and a hard place honestly.

 

[1ke]

well i did talk to a priest about it and he said it wouldn’t be a sin if i did attend. which i don’t really understand why he would have said that. he’s the one who runs the marriage tribunal too so i’m confused

I am not sure what you are confused about. It is a prudential matter.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

so a guy i know just got engaged

problem is, he’s divorced

i know i will be invited to the wedding because we’re on the same sports team

my parents will not understand because they are in the same situation, and they coach the sport

do you guys have any advice? on the one hand, i don’t want to approve of sin, on the other, i don’t want ot give off a holier than thou attitude or cause a huge fuss.

Angel1 if you don’t know the full ins and outs of the situation, what annulments or permissions or tribunal processes he may have gone thru etc etc then yes you are being holier than thou to make a thing of this.

If you do not know him well enough to know these things you have no obligation to find out either. Don’t take on an offical role unless you do know.

Enjoy yourself.

 

[BettyBoop416]

Which means they are not free to marry another.

The Church is the only entity with such authority, the ability to determine nullity. So unless/until they recognize and approach that authority, they are not in any position to remarry. They may not determine validity for themselves.

While the Church may claim such authority, trying to apply it to non-Catholics is just absurd. The Church has no authority whatsoever to judge the validity of marriages that no Catholics are party to.

 

[1ke]

The Church has authority over all sacraments, and all the baptized.

She does not currently regulate the non-Catholic baptized in the code of Canon Law. The Church does distinguish between merely ecclesial law and divine law-- divine law applies to all, ecclesial law currently applies only to those baptized Catholic or received into the Church by a profession of faith.

It is important to note, this has not always been the case and could change in the future.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

While the Church may claim such authority, trying to apply it to non-Catholics is just absurd. The Church has no authority whatsoever to judge the validity of marriages that no Catholics are party to.

Meh, it makes it easier for non-Catholics if they convert. If they remain non-Catholic I doubt they care what the Church has to say them any more than they care what the magic conch has to say. All hail the magic conch!!!

 

[BettyBoop416]

The Church has authority over all sacraments, and all the baptized.

This would probably come as quite a surprise to all the Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and other protestants out there.

She does not currently regulate the non-Catholic baptized in the code of Canon Law. The Church does distinguish between merely ecclesial law and divine law-- divine law applies to all, ecclesial law currently applies only to those baptized Catholic or received into the Church by a profession of faith.

It is important to note, this has not always been the case and could change in the future.

When all the previously mentioned protestants get up in the morning, I bet the first thing they do is check the news to see if the Catholics have taken over their sacraments.

While the Church may make this claim, it has absolutely zero real-world effect. It’s exactly that same as if the (fill in non-Catholic religious group) claimed authority over all Catholic sacraments.

 

[Elizium23]

The claim is intrinsic to the authority given the Church by Jesus Christ. The keys to the kingdom, the authority to bind and loose, were given to Peter and the Apostles. The Protestant schism and heresies did not revoke that promise and grant which was given to the Catholic Church alone, so she still retains authority and jurisdiction over the sacraments no matter what some breakaway, renegade groups may believe or claim.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

This would probably come as quite a surprise to all the Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and other protestants out there.

When all the previously mentioned protestants get up in the morning, I bet the first thing they do is check the news to see if the Catholics have taken over their sacraments.

While the Church may make this claim, it has absolutely zero real-world effect. It’s exactly that same as if the (fill in non-Catholic religious group) claimed authority over all Catholic sacraments.

Then why does it matter?

And protestant groups do claim authority over Catholic sacraments. Whether a protestant group recognizes a baptism or marriage performed in the Catholic church as valid is entirely up to them. Some do, some don’t. I’ve never lost any sleep over it.

 

[Elizium23]

Then why does it matter?

And protestant groups do claim authority over Catholic sacraments. Whether a protestant group recognizes a baptism or marriage performed in the Catholic church as valid is entirely up to them. Some do, some don’t. I’ve never lost any sleep over it.

Recognition and authority are two different things. The Catholic Church recognizes most all marriages between non-Catholics as valid. However, the Church also claims authority to adjudicate declarations of nullity, because she is entrusted with authority over the sacraments. The Church alone has the final say over what is a diriment impediment, and whether valid consent has been exchanged, and so forth. I don’t know any Protestant ecclesial community which purports to declare Catholic marriages null.