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Timbothefiveth
Guest
Can anyone help me? I need a good argument against redefining marriage, and it can’t be religious.
Thanks
Thanks
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Crumpy
Guest
No. this isn’t a guessing game. You have to provide a little more context.
Who cares to waste time responding and trying to figure out what you’re really after. Why can’t the reason be “religious” for starters. If the answer can’t be religious, then it won’t be the right answer, anyway.
Who cares to waste time responding and trying to figure out what you’re really after. Why can’t the reason be “religious” for starters. If the answer can’t be religious, then it won’t be the right answer, anyway.
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Timbothefiveth
Guest
I find myself sometimes losing arguments with people who support redefining marriage.
The person in question isn’t religious, and if I do use religion as the reason, they will always claim it somehow is unconstitutional.
Maybe, but it’s more about trying to convince who I’m arguing with, and a religious argument won’t work.
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TMC
Guest
There is a reason you can’t think of one. There isn’t one.
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Blade_and_Blood
Guest
Marriage is a religious concept, or ritual, in which two people are paired off together, either by arranged marriage or absolute choice. It’s primarily for the sake of procreation, in religious terms.
In a legal sense, I guess you can define it as two people who love each other and share a house.
But, I’m not that bright on the latter.
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
In a legal sense, I guess you can define it as two people who love each other and share a house.
But, I’m not that bright on the latter.
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
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Trishie
Guest
From a secular and general viewpoint, it is a contract holding two people together to provide reciprocal love, care, and mutual security, and to provide a stable and loving family in which to raise children
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tijeras
Guest
google Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse. excellent resource.
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Timbothefiveth
Guest
I can think of some, mostly about normal familys raising better children, although I was wondering if some of you have any you like to use.
No, in a legal sense it’s 2 people who have a marriage license. Another of the arguments I have is that marriage licenses are granted by the government to encourage healthy children, and thus this should not be redefined to include gays.
Well, gays are less likely to provide a stable, loving family.
Thanks!
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rpp
Guest
Marriage is part of human development and predates all religions. Without exception, since long before recorded history, marriage has always been between men ad women. There has NEVER been, in ANY society, the concept of same sex marriage. That is a totally new and late 20th century invention.
While there is much historical basis for polygamy, there is none for same-sex marriage.
While there is much historical basis for polygamy, there is none for same-sex marriage.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Oh my gosh, what timing! Did you not hear Life on the Rock on EWTN radio tonight? (Could have been a replay of a televised episode, for all I know.) This Australian guy was discussing the application of natural law to the concept of marriage. I thought his response to Fr. Mark Mary, and Father’s rephrasing of that, was perfect. He was pointing out that the modern concept of marriage is ‘means to an end,’ vs. an intrinsic good from the natural order. It was only a few minutes, but well worth the attempt to retrieve. It is not that different from the arguments that several of us have been making over the last couple of months on the “gay marriage” threads in the Social Justice forum. Really it was focused on society, not religion.
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rpp
Guest
EWTN archives this program on their web site and you can download and view it for free. It may be well worth viewing. I think they only keep it for a week or two Thanks, Elizabeth, for the heads up!
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GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
Matrimony is a sacrament. It is Holy. To remove its holiness is to undermine its very foundation. Those who argue otherwise do not argue for marriage.
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Oreoracle
Guest
There it is folks! The statistical arguments that are much easier to use than individual evaluation. We’re not lazy–we’re scientific!
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AveSantaMaria
Guest
- The ideal relationship is male-female. Natural law is against homosexual relationships. This argument was made 300 years before Christ when Plato made it. In fact, gay relationships were widely practiced in Ancient Greece and written about in his book: The Symposium and it was not supported. It was rarely if ever practiced egalitarianly, rather it was generally practiced with wealthy older men sleeping with the sons of their colleagues while having young wives on the side. It was debated about in the Symposium as well and some of the thoughtful discussion on these relationships is quite scary - i.e., it was considered “virtuous” to be sleeping with those adolescent boys.
- Gay relationships simply do not have a male or female role model for one of the adopted or artificially inseminated or adulterous children, either male or female. See it is against natural law, children never happen naturally.
- It makes it discriminatory to allow gay marriage and not incest, child marriage, or polygamy. With increasing amounts of immigration, we might well find that rights for child marriage and polygamy are demanded.
**
Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French **
uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKL1173478020080711?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews
- Netherlands was the first country to introduce gay marriage in 2001. Netherlands also legalizes prostitution. It legalizes incest after age 2001 as long as the child is over 18. It allowed a political party that campaigned for the legalization of pedophilia, child pornography, bestiality, and drugs in 2006. It legalizes polygamy as long as the polygamous couple is married in another country. Gay marriage did not increase rates of gay relationships in Netherlands. HIV/AIDS is still much higher in the gay population Netherlands than in other populations. Marriage as a whole is declining and unwed motherhood increasing. It is not known if gay marriage negatively effects the Netherlands or if it is just one of many things that happened in conjunction with all these laws (prostitution was actually legalized in 2000 before gay marriage legalization in 2001) but it doesn’t seem to be a positive indicator of societal change.
- I have yet to read scientifically valid research that says gay marriages are healthy for the children, but well conducted scientific studies say that it is unhealthy. In addition to being unhealthy, a child raised by a gay father published a book: Out from Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting saying that it was extremely unhealthy, it caused her mental problems and to devalue marriage, and children need both a mother and a father in a loving faithful and committed marriage.
- Switzerland (I think) did a statistical study on gay parenting and refused to release the results.
- I have yet to see a country in the world where gay men do not have an STD rate that is not significantly higher (sometimes 18 times higher) than the rest of the population. Many gay men sleep with both men and women. The Center for Disease Control in the United States as well as the World Health Organization (concerning China) attribute the rise of STDs in the general population to the immense amount of syphilis and other STDs such as HIV/AIDS in the gay community. (E.g. in the U.S., gay men account for 60% of syphilis infections although they self-identify as only about 2% of the community) I think it is highly possible though that many men who call themselves straight have homosexual attractions and participate in homosexual sex identity so it is difficult for me to understand the true implications of these statistics.
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rpp
Guest
You have a good deal of information. Saldly, it is all correct.A German brother-sister couple also challenged the incest laws in 2001. They argued that laws against incest went against freedom of choice and that they were discriminatory, like the racial sexual hygeine laws of the Third Reich. What is the difference between the pro gay marriage arguments and the pro-incest arguments?
- The ideal relationship is male-female. Natural law is against homosexual relationships. This argument was made 300 years before Christ when Plato made it. In fact, gay relationships were widely practiced in Ancient Greece and written about in his book: The Symposium and it was not supported. It was rarely if ever practiced egalitarianly, rather it was generally practiced with wealthy older men sleeping with the sons of their colleagues while having young wives on the side. It was debated about in the Symposium as well and some of the thoughtful discussion on these relationships is quite scary - i.e., it was considered “virtuous” to be sleeping with those adolescent boys.
- Gay relationships simply do not have a male or female role model for one of the adopted or artificially inseminated or adulterous children, either male or female. See it is against natural law, children never happen naturally.
- It makes it discriminatory to allow gay marriage and not incest, child marriage, or polygamy. With increasing amounts of immigration, we might well find that rights for child marriage and polygamy are demanded.
**
Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French **
uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKL1173478020080711?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews
- Netherlands was the first country to introduce gay marriage in 2001. Netherlands also legalizes prostitution. It legalizes incest after age 2001 as long as the child is over 18. It allowed a political party that campaigned for the legalization of pedophilia, child pornography, bestiality, and drugs in 2006. It legalizes polygamy as long as the polygamous couple is married in another country. Gay marriage did not increase rates of gay relationships in Netherlands. HIV/AIDS is still much higher in the gay population Netherlands than in other populations. Marriage as a whole is declining and unwed motherhood increasing. It is not known if gay marriage negatively effects the Netherlands or if it is just one of many things that happened in conjunction with all these laws (prostitution was actually legalized in 2000 before gay marriage legalization in 2001) but it doesn’t seem to be a positive indicator of societal change.
- I have yet to read scientifically valid research that says gay marriages are healthy for the children, but well conducted scientific studies say that it is unhealthy. In addition to being unhealthy, a child raised by a gay father published a book: Out from Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting saying that it was extremely unhealthy, it caused her mental problems and to devalue marriage, and children need both a mother and a father in a loving faithful and committed marriage.
- Switzerland (I think) did a statistical study on gay parenting and refused to release the results.
- I have yet to see a country in the world where gay men do not have an STD rate that is not significantly higher (sometimes 18 times higher) than the rest of the population. Many gay men sleep with both men and women. The Center for Disease Control in the United States as well as the World Health Organization (concerning China) attribute the rise of STDs in the general population to the immense amount of syphilis and other STDs such as HIV/AIDS in the gay community. (E.g. in the U.S., gay men account for 60% of syphilis infections although they self-identify as only about 2% of the community) I think it is highly possible though that many men who call themselves straight have homosexual attractions and participate in homosexual sex identity so it is difficult for me to understand the true implications of these statistics.
By the way, referring to you point number 6, Scotland has also recently done a study and also has refused to release the results.
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rpp
Guest
Yes, I understand. It is easy to confuse the two. Perhaps it is their shared border or the fact that they speak the same language. Perhaps it is the similarity in spelling.Actually, it was Scotland (not Switzerland) that I meant to mention. My (I think) was a bit of uncertainty on country names.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
To the OP:
The name of the Australian on EWTN I was searching for is Patrick Langrell. Hope that helps.
The name of the Australian on EWTN I was searching for is Patrick Langrell. Hope that helps.
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