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Patrick1982
Guest
Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend. It’s a totally aesthetic issue I have with faux antique finishes. I equally dislike when people do it to furniture and guitars.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Do the icons of more modern saints / saints which may not be recognized in the East follow traditional prototypes? In other words, is there a “generic” (not in an impious sense) icon type for “a saint”, upon which all Monastery Icon’s icons of saints are based?
**Well, to refer specifically to the products of Monastery Icons, e.g., their icon of St. Therese of Lisieux is both recognizably Eastern in style (sort of) and recognizably St. Therese.
They intend to be icons of saints recognized by a Church–if not the Church.
The Brotherhood of St. Seraphim in Walsingham (as in Our Lady of) paints icons in the tradtional western pre-schism style of such saints.
There, of course, are traditional attributes associated with certain saints, such as a censer for a deacon.
This is antipodes from the imitation icons of Robert Lentz and those of his school.
I hope this answers your question.**
**Well, to refer specifically to the products of Monastery Icons, e.g., their icon of St. Therese of Lisieux is both recognizably Eastern in style (sort of) and recognizably St. Therese.
They intend to be icons of saints recognized by a Church–if not the Church.
The Brotherhood of St. Seraphim in Walsingham (as in Our Lady of) paints icons in the tradtional western pre-schism style of such saints.
There, of course, are traditional attributes associated with certain saints, such as a censer for a deacon.
This is antipodes from the imitation icons of Robert Lentz and those of his school.
I hope this answers your question.**
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German_Melkite
Guest
From my perspective - the problem with “modern icons” is that many items are passed off as icons, when they are really just religious art. There is nothing wrong with a nice painting of Jesus or the saints, but an icon is an expression of theology. The method of expression can not be changed without doing violence to the underpinning theology.
Western “iconographers” are very apt to ignore the theology that is supposed to be expressed in an icon. Brother Robert Lentz, OFM is a fine artist, but he violates the spirit of iconography. But probably much more when he makes saints out of non-Christians, Native American shamans, and those who have committed suicide. Setting aside his total disregard for the Catholic conception of who a saint must be - his use of iconography is totally Western - fitting for religious art, but a complete abasement of meaning of icons.
As a part of the theology, an icon shoule have -
frontality of the figures Direct relationship between God and man.
no natural perspective – heaven is of a different plain
Human to inhabit heaven – body and soul
Heaven has no spatial constraints
Importance (size) is a function of goodness
Externals (things) are not important - soul is important
Light (goodness) radiates from and throughout heaven
"continuous style“– the eternal present
Important values of simplicity, clarity, measure or restraint, grace, symmetry or balance, appropriateness
Knowledge of the stories of the Holy People
Take a look at one of the “modern icons” and see how these qualities are NOT present. trinitystores.com The Navaho Madonna is a lovely and moving peice of religious art - but it should never be called an icon.
Western “iconographers” are very apt to ignore the theology that is supposed to be expressed in an icon. Brother Robert Lentz, OFM is a fine artist, but he violates the spirit of iconography. But probably much more when he makes saints out of non-Christians, Native American shamans, and those who have committed suicide. Setting aside his total disregard for the Catholic conception of who a saint must be - his use of iconography is totally Western - fitting for religious art, but a complete abasement of meaning of icons.
As a part of the theology, an icon shoule have -
frontality of the figures Direct relationship between God and man.
no natural perspective – heaven is of a different plain
Human to inhabit heaven – body and soul
Heaven has no spatial constraints
Importance (size) is a function of goodness
Externals (things) are not important - soul is important
Light (goodness) radiates from and throughout heaven
"continuous style“– the eternal present
Important values of simplicity, clarity, measure or restraint, grace, symmetry or balance, appropriateness
Knowledge of the stories of the Holy People
Take a look at one of the “modern icons” and see how these qualities are NOT present. trinitystores.com The Navaho Madonna is a lovely and moving peice of religious art - but it should never be called an icon.
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Volodymyr
Guest
This Internet Sait
icon-art.narod.ru/
is in Russian, but if you look to right is a column of names. Click on name of various ikonographists and will show samples of their work. These can be ordered from each individual ikonographer - knowing what is for family, marriage, temple, ikonostas.
If your temple needs ikonostas this can be at such sait which has ikons, ikonostas and also ikon “stands”:
ipn.ru/~palekh/iconostas.html
icon-art.narod.ru/
is in Russian, but if you look to right is a column of names. Click on name of various ikonographists and will show samples of their work. These can be ordered from each individual ikonographer - knowing what is for family, marriage, temple, ikonostas.
If your temple needs ikonostas this can be at such sait which has ikons, ikonostas and also ikon “stands”:
ipn.ru/~palekh/iconostas.html
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dominicandinah
Guest
Forgive me if this sounds weird, but if the icon was of a Saint that has been canonized by our Holy Mother Church, why does the place that is was made/purchased from matter that much (other than being personally uncomfortable with it)? What about Saint statues that are from Roman or other companies that are made in China )like the Florentine collection)? Rosaries that are purchased from companies that sell items made in China ? I am really not rying to split hairs here, I’m just curious if there is something really wrong with it? Thanks and God Bless you!
Dinah
Dinah
A
Aramis
Guest
Dinah:
Iconography is literally the people’s edition of the “official bio”…
Any artistic license taken is problematic, because Icons are the mnemonic for teaching the stories of the lives of Jesus and the saints.
There are several different types of icon, each with a role to play:
Icons of a Saint in portrait: The mode of dress tells us about their role in Salvation History. Priests will be vested as priests, bishops as bishops, deacons as deacons, subdeacons as subdeacons, etc; Many martyrs are depicted in red, Many miracle workers in white. St John the Forerunner in his skins. Clerics vested for liturgy. Most apostles in red and blue; Christ and the 12 in red and blue, as well. Different local traditions as to whom wears which on the outside.
Some have other cues, and border on events and teachings. EG: St Veronica holds the facecoth with the Holy Face. St Francis may have an animal with him. St. Moses has the Tablets of the Old Law.
Icons of an event: who was there, and the high point of the event. Iconographic crosses, Icons of various miracles, Icons of the Stations of the Cross.
Icons of a teaching: best example is the Icon of St John Climacus’ Ladder. Lesser comprehended, but far more important, is Christ Pantocrator, which is a teaching point for Christ the King and Christ the Judge, but also Christ the Teacher and Christ the Man. It’s subtle, but a reminder of the teaching points.
One should be prayerful and knowledgeable about the person or event or teaching before setting to create an Icon; a hindu lacks the spiritual side of this, and probably also lacks the knowledge. Would you buy a Catholic prayerbook composed/written by a Hindu? Or by an atheist?
Iconography is literally the people’s edition of the “official bio”…
Any artistic license taken is problematic, because Icons are the mnemonic for teaching the stories of the lives of Jesus and the saints.
There are several different types of icon, each with a role to play:
Icons of a Saint in portrait: The mode of dress tells us about their role in Salvation History. Priests will be vested as priests, bishops as bishops, deacons as deacons, subdeacons as subdeacons, etc; Many martyrs are depicted in red, Many miracle workers in white. St John the Forerunner in his skins. Clerics vested for liturgy. Most apostles in red and blue; Christ and the 12 in red and blue, as well. Different local traditions as to whom wears which on the outside.
Some have other cues, and border on events and teachings. EG: St Veronica holds the facecoth with the Holy Face. St Francis may have an animal with him. St. Moses has the Tablets of the Old Law.
Icons of an event: who was there, and the high point of the event. Iconographic crosses, Icons of various miracles, Icons of the Stations of the Cross.
Icons of a teaching: best example is the Icon of St John Climacus’ Ladder. Lesser comprehended, but far more important, is Christ Pantocrator, which is a teaching point for Christ the King and Christ the Judge, but also Christ the Teacher and Christ the Man. It’s subtle, but a reminder of the teaching points.
One should be prayerful and knowledgeable about the person or event or teaching before setting to create an Icon; a hindu lacks the spiritual side of this, and probably also lacks the knowledge. Would you buy a Catholic prayerbook composed/written by a Hindu? Or by an atheist?
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dominicandinah
Guest
Thank you so much for your answer. That really does put it into perspective for me. Now, could someone tell me what they did that was heresy? I know that Bridge Building Building images has icons of non-saints, but I thought Monastery Icons stuck with the Saints from the Canon. I guess I’ve really mimsse the boat on this topic…sorry!
In Christ,
Dinah
In Christ,
Dinah
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Aramis
Guest
They claimed to be an “Independent Orthodox Monastery” under a “Bishop Benjamin”… in quotes because of questionable apostolic succession. As Christians, integration of other faiths is both the heresy of indifferentism and of false ecumenism. Not to mention the other heresies that crop up from the mixing itself.
True Ecumenism is to discuss the differences so that the shared truths may be discovered, and the other side lead to the orthodox truths, and the heresies identified and purged, ideally after such, leading to partial (as the HCC has with the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Syrian Orthodox) or full communion (as with the churches in union are now).
False Ecumenism is to study in order to borrow… If one holds Truth, one does not borrow from those who do not.
Indifferentism is the heresy that “it doesn’t matter how one worships, since all worship is valid.” It’s directly incompatible with true Christian thought because of Christ’s declaration “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” (Jn 14:6)
By mixing, they were heretics. Now, having abandoned Christianity, they are beyond heresy… those who were Christian now are apostates.
True Ecumenism is to discuss the differences so that the shared truths may be discovered, and the other side lead to the orthodox truths, and the heresies identified and purged, ideally after such, leading to partial (as the HCC has with the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Syrian Orthodox) or full communion (as with the churches in union are now).
False Ecumenism is to study in order to borrow… If one holds Truth, one does not borrow from those who do not.
Indifferentism is the heresy that “it doesn’t matter how one worships, since all worship is valid.” It’s directly incompatible with true Christian thought because of Christ’s declaration “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” (Jn 14:6)
By mixing, they were heretics. Now, having abandoned Christianity, they are beyond heresy… those who were Christian now are apostates.
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dominicandinah
Guest
Yikes!! Thank you for the information!!!
In Christ,
Dinah
In Christ,
Dinah
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