Need some input regarding a Sunday service!

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dennisknapp

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My wife and I went to a local Catholic church and there were a few things that didn’t make sense…

First, there were no kneelers, but it looked as though there were some before.

Second, during the part of the Mass when the priest says, “though Him, with Him and in Him, in unity of the Holy Spirit…” the entire congregation joined in and sang this part.

Third, the altar servers wore street clothes instead of robes…?

What is the deal here? Is what they are doing proper?
 
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dennisknapp:
My wife and I went to a local Catholic church and there were a few things that didn’t make sense…

First, there were no kneelers, but it looked as though there were some before.
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Excellent, Dennis. When you are in church with your wife, and your mind and eyes wander during the Mass, look at the carpentry rather than the babe three pews over. It will save you and elbow in the side.
 
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dennisknapp:
My wife and I went to a local Catholic church and there were a few things that didn’t make sense…

First, there were no kneelers, but it looked as though there were some before.

Second, during the part of the Mass when the priest says, “though Him, with Him and in Him, in unity of the Holy Spirit…” the entire congregation joined in and sang this part.

Third, the altar servers wore street clothes instead of robes…?

What is the deal here? Is what they are doing proper?
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What’s going on is schism and heresy. Your just seeing the fruits. What they are doing is complete disobedience, like that of a spoiled brat. Time to look for another parish in union with Rome.
 
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Agomemnon:
What’s going on is schism and heresy. Your just seeing the fruits. What they are doing is complete disobedience, like that of a spoiled brat. Time to look for another parish in union with Rome.
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You bet. Where is the Spanish Inquistion when you need them? :bounce:
 
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dennisknapp:
My wife and I went to a local Catholic church and there were a few things that didn’t make sense…

First, there were no kneelers, but it looked as though there were some before.

Second, during the part of the Mass when the priest says, “though Him, with Him and in Him, in unity of the Holy Spirit…” the entire congregation joined in and sang this part.

Third, the altar servers wore street clothes instead of robes…?

What is the deal here? Is what they are doing proper?
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Sounds like you were there on a good day. I’ll bet they have liturgical dancers and a sister giving the homily on really “special” days.:confused: I would stay far away and offer a Mass for all of their poor souls.

God bless,
Debbie
 
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dennisknapp:
My wife and I went to a local Catholic church and there were a few things that didn’t make sense…

First, there were no kneelers, but it looked as though there were some before.

Second, during the part of the Mass when the priest says, “though Him, with Him and in Him, in unity of the Holy Spirit…” the entire congregation joined in and sang this part.

Third, the altar servers wore street clothes instead of robes…?

What is the deal here? Is what they are doing proper?
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1.) Kneel on the bare floor or bring a gardening cushion.

2.) Scary. Talk to the priest and then the bishop if necessary.

3.) Albs (“robes”) are not an absolute requirement.
 
Franciscum said:
1.) Kneel on the bare floor or bring a gardening cushion.

2.) Scary. Talk to the priest and then the bishop if necessary.

3.) Albs (“robes”) are not an absolute requirement.
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Regarding #2, no body kneeled.

Regarding #3, has anyone else experienced this?
 
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dennisknapp:
Regarding #2, no body kneeled.

Regarding #3, has anyone else experienced this?
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#3 I have experienced albless altar boys but in Poland. Since the parish was poor the altar boys wore surplices over their street clothes.
 
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dennisknapp:
Regarding #2, no body kneeled.

Regarding #3, has anyone else experienced this?
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Who cares if no one knelt? Kneel anyway!

GIRM #339. "In the dioceses of the United States of America, acolytes, altar servers, lectors, and other lay ministers may wear the alb or other suitable vesture or other appropriate and dignified clothing."
It does not say “must.” A surplice over street clothes without a cassock would be unacceptable.
 
Sorry, I meant has anyone experienced everyone singing, “through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit…?”
 
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dennisknapp:
Sorry, I meant has anyone experienced everyone singing, “through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit…?”
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Yes, and its not schism or heresy. Nor is it schism and hersey for the altar servers not to have on cassock and surplice. Nor are the lack of kneelers.
 
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katherine2:
Yes, and its not schism or heresy. Nor is it schism and hersey for the altar servers not to have on cassock and surplice. Nor are the lack of kneelers.
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  1. It’s probably not heresy, unless one is doing this in a denial or protest of the Pope’s Authority to regulate the Liturgy. It is a sin of disobedience, however and Liturgically illict for the faithful to say\sing any part of the Eucharistic Prayer, a practice that has been specifically forbidden by the Pope.
  2. Correct
  3. See number one as to the status of potential heresy. The absense or presence of kneelers had no bearing on if one should or should not kneel. Barring certain specific circumstances, certain points of the Liturgy call for kneeling. One kneels regardless of the presence or absence of kneelers.
 
Actually, katherine, having the congregation join the priest in the doxology is a liturgical abuse according to* Redemptoris Sacramentum*. See below.
The Eucharistic Prayer
[51.] Only those Eucharistic Prayers are to be used which are found in the Roman Missal or are legitimately approved by the Apostolic See, and according to the manner and the terms set forth by it. "It is not to be tolerated that some Priests take upon themselves the right to compose their own Eucharistic Prayers"129 or to change the same texts approved by the Church, or to introduce others composed by private individuals.130

[52.] The proclamation of the Eucharistic Prayer, which by its very nature is the climax of the whole celebration, is proper to the Priest by virtue of his Ordination. It is therefore an abuse to proffer it in such a way that some parts of the Eucharistic Prayer are recited by a Deacon, a lay minister, or by an individual member of the faithful, or by all members of the faithful together. The Eucharistic Prayer, then, is to be recited by the Priest alone in full.131

[53.] While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”,132 except for the people’s acclamations that have been duly approved, as described below.

[54.] The people, however, are always involved actively and never merely passively: for they “silently join themselves with the Priest in faith, as well as in their interventions during the course of the Eucharistic Prayer as prescribed, namely in the responses in the Preface dialogue, the Sanctus, the acclamation after the consecration and the “Amen” after the final doxology, and in other acclamations approved by the Conference of Bishops with the recognitio of the Holy See”.133
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Please note #52–that only the priest may pray the Eucharistic Prayer (of which the doxology is part). It is the Eucharistic “Amen” which indeed must be prayed by priest and people together.

I was a young member of the local folk group in the 70s and I remember well how the Fathers would encourage “as a sign of unity” the congregation to “join” them. They were lovely, kindly men, but they were wrong then and they’re wrong now.

Having the doxology prayed, or sung, by anyone but a priest celebrating (or concelebrating) Mass is a liturgical abuse. It doesn’t matter if the priest/ congregation have good intentions or not, it’s an abuse. Unless this diocese is one of the few in which Redemptoris Sacramentum has not yet been implemented (and those bishops with their own “good intentions” will answer to God for any shortcomings, as will we all, may God forgive us our sins), the practice is illicit, invalid and a liturgical abuse which needs to be corrected tout de suite, IMO.
 
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dennisknapp:
Sorry, I meant has anyone experienced everyone singing, “through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit…?”
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yes, they do it all the time in progressive parishes in the Northeast, and it is completely forbidden, that is part of the Eucharistic prayer reserved to the celebrant. I see it most often at retreats or conferences where there are many priests present, but they are not concelebrating, but are part of the congregation. Sometimes they join in the consecration and doxology. I will be charitable and assume it is force of habit. But the congregation has been invited to participate in both recitations at several parish Masses I have attended in Detroit and Cleveland dioceses.
 
This is answered in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, number 43: …In the Diocese of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present or some other good reason.

Lack of kneelers has tradtionally been interpreted as a good reason.
 
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katherine2:
Lack of kneelers has tradtionally been interpreted as a good reason.
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Katherine,

Please provide official examples of this interpretation if it is so commonly applied. Don’t get me wrong, I have been subject to such an unfortunate decision in the past. And to clarify for everybody reading this, it is the authority of the bishop, not the pastor, to make this judgement.

However, it was explained to me by my archdiocese (Detroit) that the exceptions listed in the GIRM, including “some other good reason”, are intended to be temporary. That is, they should remain the exception, not the rule. A remedy should be prescribed. If that remedy is installing kneelers, why is this not happening? Why is money being applied in the wrong places?
 
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katherine2:
You bet. Where is the Spanish Inquistion when you need them? :bounce:
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You probably meant that in sarcasm but America does need an inquisition and a lot of anethma’s to pass out to get it back on track.
 
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