Need to settle a dispute Ref: John 13

[DVIN_CKS]

I am currently trying to defend my Catholic faith to a fundamentalist friend who insists that the setting in John chapters 13 and 14 includes other disciples besides the 12 apostles. We are getting into the whole “authority” discussion and I am trying to point out how the 12 were chosen and that the holy spirit was given to them alone to guide them in the teachings of Jesus. She claims that the holy spirit is given to ALL indviduals to guide them to truth and claims that John is proof of this because there were “more disciples present” than just the 12.

I know this is going to open a whole can of worms with her, but could someone give me some guidance as to how to proceed… starting with the fact that the 12 Apostles were the ones present at the last supper and not a whole host of other people.

I want to get some elementary facts straight before I tackle this matter with her. THANKS!

 

[Zski01]

DVIN CKS:

I am currently trying to defend my Catholic faith to a fundamentalist friend who insists that the setting in John chapters 13 and 14 includes other disciples besides the 12 apostles. We are getting into the whole “authority” discussion and I am trying to point out how the 12 were chosen and that the holy spirit was given to them alone to guide them in the teachings of Jesus. She claims that the holy spirit is given to ALL indviduals to guide them to truth and claims that John is proof of this because there were “more disciples present” than just the 12.

I know this is going to open a whole can of worms with her, but could someone give me some guidance as to how to proceed… starting with the fact that the 12 Apostles were the ones present at the last supper and not a whole host of other people.

I want to get some elementary facts straight before I tackle this matter with her. THANKS!

You are both right (you mostly). The Holy Spirit is granted to all believers (for we cannot choose God without his grace first moving us), but her issue is more on authority.

St. Paul set forth pretty strict principles of Church structure, laying out the positions of Bishop, etc. A structured Church was the entire context of Paul’s epistles, understanding the clergy (original apostles) to be the original leaders of the Church.

Hope I’m helping. Let me know if you need more specifics or better arguments.

 

[Peg]

Search the threads regarding authority. Many receive the spirit but all to not receive all of the gifts. It is the “keys” and the “power to bind and loose” that set the Peter with the keys and the others with the “power” as authorities.

Lk 10:16 Is talking about the authority of the church through the apostles, not every single believer.

“Catholic Doctrine in Scripture” by Gregory Oatis from www.chnetwork.org is a very helpful resource.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Although there is always the possiblility that more people were involved, the Bible seems to indicate that only Jesus and the Twelve Apostles were present at the Last Supper.

If I didn’t miss anyone, John mentions only six disciples by name as being present at the Last Supper: Simon Peter (John 13:6); the disciple whom Jesus loved (presumably, John) (13:23); Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot (13:26); Thomas (14:5); Philip (14:8); and Judas (not Judas Iscariot) (presumably, Judas, the son of James, mentioned in Luke 6:16 and Acts 1:13) (14:22).

Other than that, John does not hint at the number of disciples there but simply says, “Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.” (John 13:5)

However, the other Gospels seem to indicate only the Twelve were present with Jesus at the Last Supper:

Matthew says, “When it was evening, he sat at table with the twelve disciples” (Matt 26:20).

Mark says, “And when it was evening he came with the Twelve.” (Mark 14:17)

Luke says, "And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the Apostles with him. (Luke 22:14) And, Luke earlier says, “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named Apostles.” (Luke 6:13)

Mark 14:13-17 says, “And he [Jesus] sent two of his disciples [to prepare the passover]…And when it was evening he came with the Twelve.” But, in Luke 22:8, the two disciples whom Jesus sent to prepare the passover are identified as Peter and John.

A young man is mentioned at the arrest of Jesus in Gethsemane who presumably was not an apostles but whether he was at the Last Supper or joined up with Jesus and the apostles sometime later is anyone’s guess; Mark 14:51-52 says, “And a young man followed him, with nothing but a linen cloth about his body; and they seized him, but he left the linen cloth and ran away naked.”

 

[Apologia100]

Your friend is trying to prove the case the the bible is the authority, not the Church. Make him explain to you that Jesus intended Scriptures to be the seedbed and rule of faith. He won’t be able to. Make him us passages from the Gospels, not the epistles of Paul. Make him use the words of Christ to prove that the written word is a higher authority than the spoken word.

 

[DVIN_CKS]

Todd Easton…thanks for the many bible references. That’s the start I was looking for.

Thanks too to everyone else. I will draw on all your insights to defend my faith. Not as easy a task as one would originially think.