New Catechism - advisory or normative?

[Lycorth]

They accept the New Catechism on its own evaluation. Not all readers of this Catechism have read the Introduction by Pope John Paul II, where he states in black and white that it is advisory, not normative, and does not supercede the older catechisms. Look it up! Meanwhile, the Catechism of the Council of Trent states explicitly that it is normative and canonical.

Sure, this was from another thread, but my question here is - is this true about the New Catechism?

I don’t yet have my Catechism of Trent (have to wait just a bit before I can mail order mine) and I do not any longer have my copy of the New Catechism and can’t research it myself, so can someone chime in?

Thanks!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Sure, this was from another thread, but my question here is - is this true about the New Catechism?

I don’t yet have my Catechism of Trent (have to wait just a bit before I can mail order mine) and I do not any longer have my copy of the New Catechism and can’t research it myself, so can someone chime in?

Thanks!

From the Apostolic Letter Laetamur Magnopere which “in which the Latin typical Edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is Approved and Promulgated”.

Pope John Paul II says in the beginning of it;

“IT IS A CAUSE FOR GREAT JOY THAT THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS BEING PUBLISHED. It is approved and promulgated by me in this Apostolic Letter and thus becomes the definitive text of the aforementioned Catechism.”

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Sure, this was from another thread, but my question here is - is this true about the New Catechism?

I don’t yet have my Catechism of Trent (have to wait just a bit before I can mail order mine) and I do not any longer have my copy of the New Catechism and can’t research it myself, so can someone chime in?

Thanks!

What he says in the introduction is:

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. **I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. **”

Emphasis mine.

 

[Crumpy]

Without looking at either of my two copies, which I haven’t reviewed in about two years, I think it is normative – “a sure guide” as JPII says in there someplace.

Having said that, note that it went to a second edition because there was an error in the first edition. If I understand, the first edition said that deacons act “in persona Christi” which is not correct. That charism is reserved to priests and bishops.

 

[rwoehmke]

Advisory in the sense that it was initially to be used by those who authored textbooks and simpler national catechisms, for use by the members of the Church, as the starting point for their efforts. It was to be used as the standard for judging the orthodoxy of derivative works. In my opinion then it should be considered as “normative” in the sense that it is the “gold standard” against which other writings were to be evaluated.

Although it was never meant to be used by the “unwashed” lay person, many of us have become familiar with it and use it frequently in studying our Faith.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Why do some people think that everything has to be defined to the last comma, even the place of the CCC?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Although it was never meant to be used by the “unwashed” lay person, many of us have become familiar with it and use it frequently in studying our Faith.

May I ask where you get this idea from?

 

[chrisb]

Why do some people think that everything has to be defined to the last comma, even the place of the CCC?

They seek an out. I means to justify disobedience. We are a very rebellious age and we ever seek to rule and not to be ruled. To hold all as unworthy of our submission and to ever seek a standard which we can claim others fail to meet.

 

[rwoehmke]

May I ask where you get this idea from?

When the first edition was coming out, that was what several Catholic nerwspapers had said. Obviously, since then it has come to be a standard item in any layperson’s library.
The fact that a compendium was found necessary by the Catholic Bishops would tend in my opinion to support that initially stated purpose.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

May I ask where you get this idea from?

Bro.,

With respect, I remember reading that the CCC was the document from which other, regional (episcopal conference) catechisms were to be developed. As for advisory or normative, you’re right, it IS normative, which makes it the perfect standard to weigh other catechisms against.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

When the first edition was coming out, that was what several Catholic nerwspapers had said. Obviously, since then it has come to be a standard item in any layperson’s library.
The fact that a compendium was found necessary by the Catholic Bishops would tend in my opinion to support that initially stated purpose.

Bro.,

With respect, I remember reading that the CCC was the document from which other, regional (episcopal conference) catechisms were to be developed. As for advisory or normative, you’re right, it IS normative, which makes it the perfect standard to weigh other catechisms against.

No problem, I had heard close to the same thing in passing and was just wondering where this came from.

A person I know was “scandalized” that the CCC was the textbook for my Teachings of the Catholic Church in my undergraduate degree.

 

[otjm]

Ah, God loves the liberals too.

I didn’t pay much attention to the stink when the CCC came out, but what drift I got of it was that there were those who were seriously concerned that the laity might get their grubby little hands on it and start to challenge some of those in lofty towers of ivory who expounded high, wide and mightily for the unwashed masses.

In short, there seemed to be a bit of a panic amongst the more heterodox crowd, that orthodoxy might rear its head. It was “only for the bishops” and thus might be able to be effectively surpressed.

Shock of shocks, that didn’t happen.

 

[MikeDunphy]

numealinesimpet may have been referring to this passage from Fidei Depositum (printed in the front of the Catechism):
“This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine.”

The same document says, *pace *numealinesimpet, that the CCC is normative.

I assume that the older Roman catechism is also normative. Like the newer Caetchism, it was also published by decree of the Pope (Pope Saint Pius V). Both are summaries of the faith. Neither one could spell out every detail of the faith.

numealinesimpet;6158651:

They accept the New Catechism on its own evaluation. Not all readers of this Catechism have read the Introduction by Pope John Paul II, where he states in black and white that it is advisory, not normative, and does not supercede the older catechisms. Look it up! Meanwhile, the Catechism of the Council of Trent states explicitly that it is normative and canonical.

Sure, this was from another thread, but my question here is - is this true about the New Catechism?

I don’t yet have my Catechism of Trent (have to wait just a bit before I can mail order mine) and I do not any longer have my copy of the New Catechism and can’t research it myself, so can someone chime in?

Thanks!

 

[MikeDunphy]

There were a few other changes besides the one you mentioned (this site has a list of revisions). Possibly the most notable change has to do with definition of lying:

First edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. …
Second edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. …

First edition:
2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth.
Second edition:**
2508** Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.

…Having said that, note that it went to a second edition because there was an error in the first edition. If I understand, the first edition said that deacons act “in persona Christi” which is not correct. That charism is reserved to priests and bishops.

 

[Shin]

There were a few other changes besides the one you mentioned (this site has a list of revisions). Possibly the most notable change has to do with definition of lying:

First edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. …
Second edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. …

First edition:
2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth.
Second edition:**
2508** Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.

Notable indeed!

 

[Cristiano]

There were a few other changes besides the one you mentioned (this site has a list of revisions). Possibly the most notable change has to do with definition of lying:

First edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. …
Second edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. …

First edition:
2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth.
Second edition:**
2508** Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.

Notable indeed!

I think that that is a stab at getting rid of the mental reservation attitude.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There were a few other changes besides the one you mentioned (this site has a list of revisions). Possibly the most notable change has to do with definition of lying:

First edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. …
Second edition:
2483 … To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. …

First edition:
2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth.
Second edition:**
2508** Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.

Notable indeed!

While this change is there, one must still read the Catechism in context. The paragraph before 2483 is very important.

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

The italicized numbers are the references for these sections.

They are as follows;

281 St. Augustine, De mendacio 4,5L 40:491.
282 Jn 8:44.

Specifically 281, which is St Augustine’s On lying.