New in this forum

  • Thread starter Thread starter nicole_german
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

nicole_german

Guest
I am new in this forum and searching in christianity but somebody told me that bible contents errors and this is a copy of her letter :

In the second chapter of the book of Ezra is given a long list of the Israelites who returned from Babylon to Jerusalem. The list begins with the following words:

“Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city.”

In the seventh chapter of Nehemiah there is a copy of the very same list. Nehemiah seems to have simply copied Ezra. He begins thus, starting at verse six:

"And I found a register of the genealogy of them which came up at the first, and found written therein, Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried

away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city."

Exactly the same list. No one can argue that this was some other list. In each account, there follows a list of families that came out of Babylon, with the number of persons belonging to them. But in transcribing them, Nehemiah made many errors.

Family Ezra Nehemiah

Arah 775 652

Zattu 945 845

Bani 642 648

Bebai 623 628

Azgad 1,222 2,322

Adonikam 666 667

Bigvai 2,056 2,067

Adin 454 655

Bezai 323 324

Hashum 223 328

Senaah 3,630 3,930

Asaph 128 148

Singers 200 245
 
the problem you’re pointing to here is a difference between infallible and inerrant .

the first holds that the Bible doesn’t teach anything wrong - everything it teaches is true.

the second holds that the Bible doesn’t have any errors in it whatsoever. every list, every number, every name is exactly right - perfect, without blemish.

the RCC teaches the first view - that there are no false teachings in the Bible. the RCC doesn’t teach that there aren’t any clerical errors, which you’re describing.

whether or not this is an error is debatable, though. if someone asks me who was at a party, and i name 5 friends of mine but don’t mention the other 50 people there, and then that same person asks John who was at the party, and he names the 5 i mentioned plus 7 others, neither of us is wrong. we just didn’t mention everyone.

i don’t believe the verses you quoted make any claim to give an exhaustive list. if it said ‘these are all that there were, and there weren’t ANY others at all’, then you’d have an error. as it was, you simply have some left out, possibly for some reason we don’t know.
 
When did Ahaziah son of Jehoram begin his reign in Judah?

"In the eleventh year of Joram the son of Ahab began Ahaziah to reign

over Judah." 2Ki 9:29

"In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel did Ahaziah

the son of Jehoram king of Judah began to reign." 2Ki 8:25

How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?

“Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign.” 2Ch 36:9

“Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign.” 2Ki 24:8

How long did Jotham reign in Jerusalem?

Sixteen years. 2Ki 15:33

At least twenty years. 2Ki 15:30

How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?

Twenty two years old. 2Ki 8:26

Forty two years old. 2Ch 22:2

How long did Omri reign?

From the 31st to the 38th year of Asa’s reign, Omri is said to have

reigned twelve years. An impossibility. 1Ki 16:23,28-29

How much gold was brought to Solomon from Ophir?

420 talents of gold. 1Ki 9:28

450 talents of gold. 2Ch 8:18

How many stalls did Solomon have for his horses?

4,000 stalls. 2Ch 9:25

40,000 stalls. 1Ki 4:26

How long did Gad tell David he was to suffer famine?

Three years. 1Ch 21:11-12

Seven years. 2Sa 24:13

How many horsemen did David take with him from Hadadezer?

700 horsemen. 2Sa 8:4

7,000 horsemen. 1Ch 18:4
 
I guess this idiotic question is on topic since the verses in question deal with numbers. If I recall my history, arabic numerals did not come into use until sometime after the 6th century. Presumably any version in Latin would use roman numerals. How were (are) numbers written in Hebrew? Greek? Is there something there that would lead to errors in transcription or translation?
 
40.png
puzzleannie:
I guess this idiotic question is on topic since the verses in question deal with numbers. If I recall my history, arabic numerals did not come into use until sometime after the 6th century. Presumably any version in Latin would use roman numerals. How were (are) numbers written in Hebrew? Greek? Is there something there that would lead to errors in transcription or translation?
Click to expand...
I don’t know so much about Hebrew and Greek numeration, however, you make a valid point. I know that in other ancient number systems, take Babylonian for example, that it can become very ambigous and almost impossible to be certain of the correct number.

In Babylonian it is a base sixty number system (our is base 10, hence “decimal”) They only had three symbols. (Which I can’t make here, but I’ll try to get close.) The symbol for 1 was what looks like an ice-cream cone (without the ice-cream) just a trianglular wedge. The symbol for 10 was > (pretty much). Now when counting up to 59 the system was repetitive and additive (like Roman Numerals). 34 would look like this (I’m going to use “l” for the 1) 34= >>>llll Now, when you get past 60 you bump into the next bracket, i.e. 62= l ll (notice the space in between, this tells you you’ve bumped into the 60’s spot.) In our number system we have the 1’s, 10’s, 100’s…and so on. In Babylonian they have 1’s, 60’s, 3600’s…and so on. (Needless to say they didn’t really get past the third place.) So, the number, l >> lll would equal 3600+1200+3=4803. Now, the point of all that was this. The big problem with Babylonian is this. Convert this number, l You might say 1, and that’s right…maybe. It could also be 60 or 3600. The key is normally the context. Like if it was the weight of a person the proper conversion would be 60 “stones” or whatever measure. But what if the context wasn’t clear, like…how many people came back from the diaspora. It could be 1, 60, or 3600.

Like I said that is Babylonian. I don’t know Hebrew, but I would guess they were about the same given that the cultures were so intertwined. Recall that Babylon is where the Jews were returning from. Hope that was more helpful than confusing.
 
Sorry to tell you that am still little confused because when the bible was revealated The holy spirit was directing that
And the if the holy is perfect so we should not see to not error but those confusing am right?

Really appreciate your answer

Blessing
 
I looked back into some of my mathmatical texts and found some info on the Greek and Hebrew number systems.

They were both what is called a “ciphered” number system. They would take the characters of their respective alphabets and attach a numerical value to it. I’m not going to try and get the characters to print here, but to give an idea. Greek: alpha-1, beta-2, gamma-3,…iota-10, kappa-20, lambda-30,…rho-100, sigma-200, tau-300,… To make a number you put some letters together and add their values. However, I’m not sure how this could lead to problems like the Babylonian.
 
nicole - the answer to your question is that the Holy Spirit DID inspire the Bible - but didn’t guarantee (necessarily) that every translation of the Bible would be free from copying or numerical errors.

the MESSAGE and CONTENT of the Bible are free from any error - they are God’s message to us. the numbers or discrepancies from one account to another are not germain (no pun intended with your name) to the inspiration of the CONTENT of the Bible’s message.

does that make sense?
 
Let me add that we are also told int he Bible that the Word, the Scipture only reveals part of God’s truth, we only get the complete story when we are in heaven.

Second, context means everything - how can you knwo for sure that two statements that night otherwise appear contradictory, are not when you know the whole context? Time, situation, motivation of the speaker, there are examples of each of these and more where I could say apparently contradictory things that are not.

Some errors are obvious to the readers of that time, because they were parables to explain a concept. You know how sometimes you say “For example…” and you are trying to make a point, but in fact the person doesn’t let themselves listen to the point because they are trying to understand the example as truth when it was totally hypothetical? “Assume I have a sister and she is 3 years younger than me…” and you keep interrupting and saying “wait a minute that’s impossible because your mom died a year after you were born…” and I say “no no let me finish, it’s just a hypothetical I am trying to make a point, just listen!”

One example of that is in Judith 1, which starts out:

In the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who ruled over the Assyrians in the great city of Nineveh.

****The story is fictional and that we should not waste our time trying to identify its historical setting. Only by accepting the fiction will we gather the meaning. Nebuchadnezzar never ruled in Nineveh!

Now people point to this and say with such a blatant error this book can be considered truth, but for the people of the time it is like starting a story that says “Once upon a time, when Adolph Hitler was the President of the United States…”, to the people of the time it’s such an obvious error this is clearly a fictionary story to make a point.

In conclusion - don’t get so hung up on 40 vs. 40,000. Search for the truth, as others have so wonderfully articulated.
 
The authors of scripture knew nothing of 20th (21st) century American culture.

They used numbers to convey meaning that is more than a bit foreign to us. Those numbers held great meaning for their audience, but with just a bit of work, you can share in their intent.

For example, to the Jews of a few thousand years ago, the number “40” conveyed the commencement of “new life”. It was thought that pregnancy lasted for a period of 40 sabbaths. This is close to the length of gestation (38 weeks from conception…40 weeks from last menses).

Christ spent 40 days in the desert… then began His public ministry…a new life.

The Jews wandered in the desert for 40 years… then emerged as a new nation, no longer just a wandering people.

Moses spent 40 years in Midian, saw a burning bush and…whammo… a totally new life commenced.

Noah and the ark…40 days…new world…evil washed away…new life.

Were all those numerical figures exact? Perhaps not to our mindset that is attuned to a precision that would be foreign to peoples of a few thousand years ago, but to the authors, the figure conveys more truth to the audience than a precision of hours/minutes/seconds would warrant.

As far as a king reigning for “X” years, some would calculate time from coronation onward. Others would count actual reign time (King Pegasus X got sick in May and died in December. His son, King Pegasus XI took over in May, but was crowned in December. What month was the start of his reign? Perspective is everything.

Don’t stumble over the numbers.

You are missing the whole point of scripture if you do.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top