New Roman Missal and the Mass of Creation II

[TheMc]

Gosh, people would always post about this setting like it was the greatest thing. I finally heard it, and I think it’s an awful piece of music, liturgically-speaking. I think it insults the dignity of the new translation. Sure, it’s catchy, but I detest the thought of it being played in a parish.

I know. I really don’t see what is so great. A typical haugen ditty, if you ask me. At least the sanctus has some hint of solemnity, but past that, it’s down the drain.

Why can’t something with dignity like the German Mass or Community Mass be used? Why not find something with real dignity?

 

[Sarabande]

Gosh, people would always post about this setting like it was the greatest thing. I finally heard it, and I think it’s an awful piece of music, liturgically-speaking. I think it insults the dignity of the new translation. Sure, it’s catchy, but I detest the thought of it being played in a parish.

In my diocese, the Director of Worship for the diocese has worked to get it out of the repertoire of all the churches. Many parishes have stopped its used, but it seems to be the go-to mass setting whenever there are weddings. The music directors always assume that it’s the only setting the outside soloist/cantor knows (which in many cases, that’s true because the MofC was so overused) and then they are relieved, when I tell them that I know plenty of other mass settings.

One of my other church positions is in a different diocese where it is still the go-to setting. The organist, a conservatory trained organist, doesn’t like the setting, but the pastor wants it. It is the only setting allowed to be used there for the time being.

 

[Brendan]

The problem with your theory is one I have recently detailed here:

The Roman documents often aren’t as cut-and-dried as some people would like to think. “You must sing the text as it is given, without adding anything,” the documents say. But if this were to be understood literally, then it would ban a huge proportion of sacred polyphony from the Mass, since composers so often repeat and interweave the “official” texts.
​

Except the Sacred Polyphony that you refer to is either hymnal in nature ( not the text of the Mass sung) or was written for the practice of the Tridentine Mass, where the priest would recite the text of the Mass in a low voice, and the people would sing in similar words, as part of the Missa Cantina Low Mass. The problem of associating Sacred Polyphony used in that context is that context is that there is no equivelent in the Ordinary Form. It was the priest alone who recited the Mass text, while the people sang what were, in effect, hymns.

Thus, there are quite a number of settings of the Creed and the Gloria done in Sacred Polyphony, that would NOT meet the requrements for use as sung Mass text under the current instructions.

So your point is invalid​

 

[MarkThompson]

Except the Sacred Polyphony that you refer to is either hymnal in nature ( not the text of the Mass sung) or was written for the practice of the Tridentine Mass, where the priest would recite the text of the Mass in a low voice, and the people would sing in similar words, as part of the Missa Cantina Low Mass. The problem of associating Sacred Polyphony used in that context is that context is that there is no equivelent in the Ordinary Form. It was the priest alone who recited the Mass text, while the people sang what were, in effect, hymns.

Thus, there are quite a number of settings of the Creed and the Gloria done in Sacred Polyphony, that would NOT meet the requrements for use as sung Mass text under the current instructions.

So your point is invalid

Although you are right to point out that there is a distinction between the liturgy said by the priest and the para-liturgy sung by the choir, you fail to take into account its origins and its effect. When the choir sings, say, a polyphonic Kyrie, it is not singing a “hymn” tacked on to the Mass. Originally, the choir was a genuine liturgical actor, and the pieces it sang were the parts of the Mass. For the priest celebrant to go ahead and finish the parts silently was a later innovation to speed things along. More importantly, the choir in a sung Mass is not permitted to sing any old thing just because “*t was the priest alone who recited the Mass text,” as you say. They had to sing the texts of the Mass; and the fact that distortions and repetitions were readily countenanced is directly relevant to the Church’s traditional understanding of what “the Mass text” is and what you can do with it. (This topic has nothing to do, of course, with the common practice in low Masses of the congregation singing actual hymns.)

Your claim that many of the old polyphonic settings of the Ordinary are now forbidden for the liturgy in the OF is completely novel. No one involved in the RotR, from Pope Benedict on down, has ever said anything like this, and indeed many OF Masses have been celebrated in the presence of high prelates, using all manner of polyphonic ordinaries.

P.S. – Missa “Cantina”? I’d get these guys –

https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=footiewallpapers&e=com

 

[ChrisCA]

Every time the old one deviated from the approved text it struck a nerve with me like the “God of Power, *God Of *Might” or the “Jesus, Lamb of God”, and “Grant Us Your Peace”.

I wonder how many parishes will actually stop using the old Mass of Creation “Lamb of God” and replace it with the correct 2010 version, since the Lamb of God is the one thing that is not changing in the new translations.

Unfortunately, while I was visiting home for Thanksgiving, I attended Mass at my hometown parish there and the “Jesus, Lamb of God” and “Grant Us Your Peace” was still used.

Knowing this, I just remained silent when “Jesus” was said and then said started saying “Lamb of God”…

Where I’m currently living, I have been attending Mass at the Basilica in downtown Baltimore (America’s First Cathedral – Thanks be to God!). One day “Grant Us Your Peace” was said (which I never heard said here before) and then the next Mass I attended there “Grant Us Peace” was said. It was a different Cantor that said it incorrectly, so that might explain it…but they have never pre-pended Jesus to the Lamb of God there, though.

 

[DiZent]

I never really know that the texts of MoC were “off”, but I did appreciate from a musician’s standpoint and as congregation. I found it “sing-able.”. I have heard the MoC II at another parish, but we don’t use it. I do not care much for the ICEL chant, but that is a personal prference. I have tried, but I just don’t like chant. Though I believe God appreciates the effort as much He appreciates the effort of the contemporary choir, chant is like screeching chalk to me. I go to the quiet Mass instead, where I get the correct texts without chant.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

So you are saying you wouldn’t mind if we made other parts of the Mass responsorial too?

Cantor: Holy, holy holy, Lord God of hosts!
All: Holy, holy holy, Lord God of hosts!
Cantor: Heaven and earth are full of your glory!
All: Holy, holy holy, Lord God of hosts!
Cantor: Hosanna in the highest!
All: Holy, holy holy, Lord God of hosts!
Cantor: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
All: Holy, holy holy, Lord God of hosts!
Cantor: Hosanna in the highest!
All: Holy, holy holy, Lord God of hosts!

Greetings TheMc,

Oh the horrors. I detest the responsorial gloria of the MoC and would never use that Mass setting when I directed church choirs.

When I read what you did I was cringing.

Thanks for standing up and saying that the responsorial gloria is NOT allowed. The Sing to the Lord is not an authoritative document for sure.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[TheMc]

Greetings TheMc,

Oh the horrors. I detest the responsorial gloria of the MoC and would never use that Mass setting when I directed church choirs.

When I read what you did I was cringing.

Thanks for standing up and saying that the responsorial gloria is NOT allowed. The Sing to the Lord is not an authoritative document for sure.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

Yay! Someone who understands what I’m talking about!

 

[TheMc]

Since this has been brought to the forefront again, I’d like to respond.

First, I didn’t say I liked responsorial parts, I said that under our bishops’ interpretation of the rules a responsorial Gloria is permitted.

That question was poorly worded. I should have asked: “Under your interpretation of the Roman documents, do you think this would be allowed?” (Completely ignoring STTL, since as you know, it holds no weight).

Second, the remark in Sing to the Lord concerns the Gloria specifically, so whether the same applies to the Sanctus is an open question.

Why wouldn’t the same concept apply to the sanctus? STTL isn’t legislating anything new anyways. It can’t.

Third, your version of the Sanctus is obviously ridiculous, since such a short song does not require five refrains; so, straw man and all that.

Neither does the gloria. There is no basis in tradition for a refrained gloria anyways.

If a refrained gloria is ok, but this is not, where do you draw the line? Why don’t we just stick to the text without changing it?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Yay! Someone who understands what I’m talking about!

Greetings TheMc,

I don’t know how I missed this topic entirely, but I noticed it for the FIRST time going through Today’s Posts. And when I saw the stuff about the responsorial gloria I felt that I needed to chime in.

To my knowledge America seems to be the only ones doing the responsorial gloria because of the MoC. I hope that the new MoC fixed things, of course I am not sure if I will ever look into that Mass setting.

Give me the traditional Mass settings that we have been using for hundreds of years other than the new appaling Mass settings that they have come up with.

Though listening to some of the OPC Mass settings that were supposedly new, I was disappointed.

I guess I may have to break out the sheet music and pencil to write some. I have been working on a few Mass settings and got to use the Eucharistic Acclamations * and they were received nicely. So hopefully I can get some glorias done, though that particular Mass part terrifies me. Becuase to me there are no mediocore glorias written either they are superb or they are poor. What do you think?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit*

 

[markomalley]

giamusic.com/pdf/MoC_article2.pdf

According to the article above, there will be a revised Mass of Creation by Haugen for the New Roman Missal. Has anyone seen it yet? If so, will Haugen still be changing the words to the Missal. I was wondering like for the Agnus Dei, since the words aren’t going to be changing from the current missal to the new missal, will there still be the “Jesus, Lamb of God” instead of just “Lamb of God”? Are there still the tropes “Bread of Life”, “Prince of Peace”, etc? Or have they been done away with? Has anyone seen any guidance from their diocese that deals with this situation of using musical settings with words that are not faithful to the new missal?

For the life of me, I have never been able to comprehend the idea of using music composed by a Protestant in a Catholic liturgy of any sort. It does not make sense.

 

[Phemie]

Greetings TheMc,

I don’t know how I missed this topic entirely, but I noticed it for the FIRST time going through Today’s Posts. And when I saw the stuff about the responsorial gloria I felt that I needed to chime in.

To my knowledge America seems to be the only ones doing the responsorial gloria because of the MoC. I hope that the new MoC fixed things, of course I am not sure if I will ever look into that Mass setting.

Unfortunately, the three new settings of the Mass commissioned by the Canadian Bishops have a responsorial Gloria. I wonder if the CCCB actually requested that?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Unfortunately, the three new settings of the Mass commissioned by the Canadian Bishops have a responsorial Gloria. I wonder if the CCCB actually requested that?

Greetings Phemie,

Hmmm, I wonder what the deal is with the responsorial gloria. I am hoping that this will be eradicated at some point.

That’s one reason I go to TLM Masses. No responsorial glorias there.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Phemie]

Greetings Phemie,

Hmmm, I wonder what the deal is with the responsorial gloria. I am hoping that this will be eradicated at some point.

That’s one reason I go to TLM Masses. No responsorial glorias there.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

It would be a 1000 mile trek for me to find a Mass celebrated in the Extraordinary Form so I have to be content with the OF with responsorial Glorias.