New TLMs what is necessary?

[Catholig]

My questions are what exactly would be necessary for a priest to say a public TLM. If lay lectors aren’t allowed then who will read the readings? And what about the Minor Orders - are they necessary for the TLM? And last but not least what if the church is facing the wrong way?

Thanks,

Catholig

 

[Chatter163]

At a Solemn Mass, the subdeacon chants the epistle and the deacons chants the gospel. At the much more common Sung and Low Masses, the priest himself does the readings; he chants them at Sung Mass and reads them at Low Mass.

I do not understand what you are asking about minor orders.

By saying that the church “is facing the wrong way,” I assume that you mean the altar faces the people. In most cases, the priest will simply celebrate Mass facing the altar, knowing that there will be a huge space between the altar and the wall at some distance behind it. This is fine, as the point is to face the altar (hopefully this will mean also facing east); the altar does not need to be attached to the wall, though it is much nicer when it is.

If celebrating facing the altar is not possible because the sanctuary steps are immediately in front of the altar, or for some other architectural reason, then a portable altar will need to be set up.

 

[Catholig]

At a Solemn Mass, the subdeacon chants the epistle and the deacons chants the gospel. At the much more common Sung and Low Masses, the priest himself does the readings; he chants them at Sung Mass and reads them at Low Mass.

I do not understand what you are asking about minor orders.

By saying that the church “is facing the wrong way,” I assume that you mean the altar faces the people. In most cases, the priest will simply celebrate Mass facing the altar, knowing that there will be a huge space between the altar and the wall at some distance behind it. This is fine, as the point is to face the altar (hopefully this will mean also facing east); the altar does not need to be attached to the wall, though it is much nicer when it is.

If celebrating facing the altar is not possible because the sanctuary steps are immediately in front of the altar, or for some other architectural reason, then a portable altar will need to be set up.

I meant when the church is designed so that the people don’t face east.

Catholig

 

[Kielbasi]

I meant when the church is designed so that the people don’t face east.

Catholig

Not a problem, plenty of pre-VII churches aren’t positioned so the building faces east (e.g., St. Adalbert and St. Matthew in Pittsburgh).

In that case, they are facing liturgical east.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Awful lot of churches here from the 18th and 19th century in which the altar doesn’t face east. St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans - north. St. Joseph Cathedral in Baton Rouge - north. St. Patrick (indult parish New Orleans) - south. St. Agnes (indult parish Baton Rouge) - north.

My home parish in New Orleans faced east but I can say that ad orientem was not the norm in my area. St. Alphonsus in New Orleans (my family’s home parish was to the north). St. Mary’s the German parish across the street was to the east. No rhyme or reason.

These are all historic churches. Something else is going on here.

 

[Kielbasi]

These are all historic churches. Something else is going on here.

I think the only thing going on is that the architects of those churches and plenty more worked with the lots they had to work with.

But the altar is always liturgical east, so it isn’t a problem.

The only place I could see a problem is with liturgical east is if it is a church “in the round” with the altar in the centre.

 

[kleary]

My questions are what exactly would be necessary for a priest to say a public TLM. If lay lectors aren’t allowed then who will read the readings? And what about the Minor Orders - are they necessary for the TLM? And last but not least what if the church is facing the wrong way?

Thanks,

Catholig

In the 1962 Missal, in a Solemn Mass the Subdeacon sings the Epistle and the Deacon sings the Gospel.

Since the abolishment of the Minor Orders in the “Ordinary Rite” (The FSSP still has valid minor orders however), there is a certain level a current seminarian needs to act as Subdeacon- if he has reached Tonsure he can wear the maniple- if not he wears the dalmatic only I believe. Any Deacon can fill the role of Deacon, even permanent deacons- find two of them and you have Deacon and Subdeacon- even a priest can perform the “subdeacon” role at Solemn Mass- just remember the ordained can fill lower roles, but a Deacon cannot do the priest’s role, and a seminarian not yet a Deacon cannot do the deacon’s role at Solemn Mass.

Most likely you will not see a “Solemn Mass” for some time in the local “Ordinary Rite” parish, you will simply have Low Mass or a sung Low Mass without Gregorian Chant.

The priest alone does the readings- as was done in 1962 at Low Mass. Lay persons are not allowed to do this- the only lay persons allowed in the Sanctuary also are male altar boys- all must wear the traditional cassock and surplus. Any lay person entering the Sanctuary to set things up must also wear a cassock.

It makes no difference as to the “actual direction” of way the altar faces. There is what is called “liturgical East”…as long as the priest and people face the same direction - that is established. If the pre4ist has some room in front of the current altar he can say Mass there. If not you would have to get a portable altar.

Ken

 

[BobP123]

The norm for the readings is that the priest does the readings. In the Solemn High Mass, the deacon does the gospel while the subdeacon does the epistle. During the homily the priest normally begins by giving the readings in the vernacular, although that may change and the vernacular will be done during the Mass proper, perhaps by a lector. The ED Commission may provide some guidelines there.

 

[kleary]

The norm for the readings is that the priest does the readings. In the Solemn High Mass, the deacon does the gospel while the subdeacon does the epistle. During the homily the priest normally begins by giving the readings in the vernacular, although that may change and the vernacular will be done during the Mass proper, perhaps by a lector. The ED Commission may provide some guidelines there.

“Lector”??? at the TLM??? that is sick. The rubrics for the 1962 Missal does not allow for a “lector”, however the MP does allow for the Epistle and Gospel to be read or sung by the Priest, Deacon, Subdeacon in an “approved vernacular translation.”

Ken

 

[BobP123]

“Lector”??? at the TLM??? that is sick.

Yeh, but we’ll make them read it in Latin. That’ll quiet them down.

Just kidding. I hear you.

 

[AJV]

“Lector”??? at the TLM??? that is sick. The rubrics for the 1962 Missal does not allow for a “lector”, however the MP does allow for the Epistle and Gospel to be read or sung by the Priest, Deacon, Subdeacon in an “approved vernacular translation.”

Ken

It was always permitted in the rubrics in the absence of a subdeacon for a lector, vested in surplice, to sing the Epistle- like in the Missa Cantata (cf.Ritus Servandus VI : viii) That is why he is called a lector, no? It is his function as the rite for his ordination makes clear.

I think the 1962 rubric could even be interpreted in a slightly more linient manner? for whereas the earlier versions say “Epistolam cantet in loco consueto aliquis Lector Superpelliceo indutus” the 1962 version says “Epistola a ministrante cani potest”

 

[AJV]

“Lector”??? at the TLM??? that is sick. The rubrics for the 1962 Missal does not allow for a “lector”, however the MP does allow for the Epistle and Gospel to be read or sung by the Priest, Deacon, Subdeacon in an “approved vernacular translation.”

Ken

It was always permitted in the rubrics in the absence of a subdeacon for a lector, vested in surplice, to sing the Epistle- like in the Missa Cantata (cf.Ritus Servandus VI : viii) That is why he is called a lector, no? It is his function as the rite for his ordination makes clear.

I think the 1962 rubric could even be interpreted in a slightly more linient manner? for whereas the earlier versions say “Epistolam cantet in loco consueto aliquis Lector Superpelliceo indutus” the 1962 version says “Epistola a ministrante cani potest”

 

[lak611]

I think the only thing going on is that the architects of those churches and plenty more worked with the lots they had to work with.

But the altar is always liturgical east, so it isn’t a problem.

The only place I could see a problem is with liturgical east is if it is a church “in the round” with the altar in the centre.

What would happen in a parish where the priest faces east when he says the Mass versus populem, but the congregation is facing west? In my parish if the priest was ad orientem, then everybody would be facing west. For the NO that we have now, only the priest faces east.

 

[Kielbasi]

What would happen in a parish where the priest faces east when he says the Mass versus populem, but the congregation is facing west? In my parish if the priest was ad orientem, then everybody would be facing west. For the NO that we have now, only the priest faces east.

*Liturgical *east is the proper orientation for the Latin mass.

In the NO church that you are worshipping in, although the priest is facing the geographic east, he is facing liturgical west.

Your confusing the two concepts here, the points on the compass and the orientation of a church based on where the altar is.

 

[AJV]

*Liturgical *east is the proper orientation for the Latin mass.

In the NO church that you are worshipping in, although the priest is facing the geographic east, he is facing liturgical west.

Your confusing the two concepts here, the points on the compass and the orientation of a church based on where the altar is.

While liturgical East was the one usually followed, the liturgical books also contain references to the situation described by lak611: actual East with only the priest facing the people. The difference between then and now being that the candles, cross, relics, etc. were in the middle between the priest and the people. .

 

[lak611]

While liturgical East was the one usually followed, the liturgical books also contain references to the situation described by lak611: actual East with only the priest facing the people. The difference between then and now being that the candles, cross, relics, etc. were in the middle between the priest and the people. .

So would the priest still face the congregation in my parish if he was celebrating a TLM?

 

[Catholig]

So would the priest still face the congregation in my parish if he was celebrating a TLM?

I think he could do it either way - the only thing is that if he is to celebrate behind the altar there’ll be a lot more stuff on it - you might not be able to see him

Catholig

 

[lak611]

I think he could do it either way - the only thing is that if he is to celebrate behind the altar there’ll be a lot more stuff on it - you might not be able to see him

Catholig

Well, he would not need the tabernacle on the altar, just the candles, the missal, the crucifix and the cards, so it would not be obstructing.