New Wine at Mass

[nuntym]

OK But it was changed from the original bread which is like a peta bread. So what your saying is its ok to change it because the original would get moldy. But isn’t wine made of grapes so the same would be right for the grape juice if someone or some religion don’t drink alcohol correct.

Nope, you got it all wrong.

Bread by definition is at least

1. flour mixed with
2. a liquid then
3. baked

Now the wafer used in the Holy Eucharist all satisfies these requirements, for these wafers

1. are made of wheaten flour, mixed with
2. water (no other ingredients are used), then
3. baked

According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is **a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, **into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.

Grape juice, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether. By definition, wine must at least be

1. made of grape juice that is
2. fermented and contains
3. ethanol from said fermention

It was specific in all Biblical accounts of the Last Supper that the cup Jesus blessed contained wine. Grape juice, on the other hand, was first developed for commercial distribution by Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869, when he halted fermentation by pasteurizing the juice (see the story from Welch’s Company website). Therefore commercial grape juice, or even fresh grape juice is

1. made of grape juice that is
2. not fermented and therefore
3. does not contain ethanol

Clearly, the arguments against the Catholic use of wafers vs the use of some Protestants of grape juice during Eucharistic celebrations cannot be compared.

 

[peary]

OK But it was changed from the original bread which is like a peta bread. So what your saying is its ok to change it because the original would get moldy. But isn’t wine made of grapes so the same would be right for the grape juice if someone or some religion don’t drink alcohol correct.

No, it wasn’t changed. Unleavened bread is unleavened bread. It was the same ingredient used by Christ at the Last Supper, the Passover Meal, more like a matzah. Pita bread does not qualify because it has sugar and yeast in it, sometimes honey, sometimes other ingredients.

Passover bread just has wheat flour, and sea salt (sometimes butter is added but not necessarily). It is similar to a mostly unsalted Saltine cracker.

Communion bread in Catholic Masses is made up of only wheat flour and water. It can be baked in a loaf or as wafers.

During the earliest years of the Catholic church, there was an entire ritual surrounding the process of creating communion wafers, beginning with the selection and cleansing of the wheat. Once the wheat had been properly washed and ground, only a baker sanctioned by the local church council could produce communion wafers in a ceremonially shielded iron-plated oven.

The Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church (1983), Canon 924 states:
“The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.”

This means that the wine must be naturally fermented with nothing added to it, and the wine itself cannot have soured or become vinegar, nor can it have anything artificial added to it (preservatives, flavours), as does grape juice.

While the Roman Catholic Church generally adheres to the rule that all wine for sacramental use must be pure grape wine and alcoholic, it is accepted that there are some circumstances, where the priest is an alcoholic for example, where it may be necessary to use a wine that is only minimally fermented, called mustum.

 

[bpbasilphx]

What do you get when you crush grapes?

You always get WINE, because fermentation starts immediately.

All Protestants used wine until a Methodist minister named Welch learned how to pasteurize and bottle grape juice and remove the alcohol.

 

[ralphinal]

You want to drink vinegar?

Some wine that I’ve had before wasn’t much better

 

[Eutychus123]

What do you get when you crush grapes?

You always get WINE, because fermentation starts immediately.

All Protestants used wine until a Methodist minister named Welch learned how to pasteurize and bottle grape juice and remove the alcohol.

Some information from O.S. Luke about Methodists, Welch, and Wine.

Welch wasn’t that influential in Methodism - just an enterprising dentist in the middle of the Prohibition movement. He was actually a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Connexion, a small Calvinistic breakaway of the (then) Methodist Episcopal Church.

Presently, you CAN use wine for Eucharist in a United Methodist Church, but most do not. The historical timeline is thus:
The 1864 General Conference on temperance “recommends that in all cases the pure juice of the grape be used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper.”
The 1872 General Conference reaffirms its recommendation of 1864.
The 1876 permissive rubric based on 1864 recommendation is added at the head of Ritual for Holy Communion.
In 1880, the General Conference added a semi-mandatory rubric “let none but the pure juice of the grape be used in administering the Lord’s Supper, whenever practicable.”
In 1916, the General Conference adopted a mandatory rubric (i.e., “whenever practicable” was deleted).
The 1964 Book of Worship rubric is emphatic: “The pure, unfermented juice of the grape shall be used.”
Note that the current ritual texts and rubrics in our Hymnal (1989) and Book of Worship (1992) do not explicitly define what form of the fruit of the grape shall be used. The United Methodist Book of Worship does recognize…

• the historic and ecumenical practice has been the use of wine
• the use of the unfermented grape juice by The United Methodist Church and its predecessors is an expression of pastoral concern for recovering alcoholics, enables the participation of children and youth, and supports the church’s witness of abstinence. (See the 1964 Book of Worship, page 28.)

 

[Eutychus123]

No, it wasn’t changed. Unleavened bread is unleavened bread. It was the same ingredient used by Christ at the Last Supper, the Passover Meal, more like a matzah. Pita bread does not qualify because it has sugar and yeast in it, sometimes honey, sometimes other ingredients.

Passover bread just has wheat flour, and sea salt (sometimes butter is added but not necessarily). It is similar to a mostly unsalted Saltine cracker.

Communion bread in Catholic Masses is made up of only wheat flour and water. It can be baked in a loaf or as wafers.

During the earliest years of the Catholic church, there was an entire ritual surrounding the process of creating communion wafers, beginning with the selection and cleansing of the wheat. Once the wheat had been properly washed and ground, only a baker sanctioned by the local church council could produce communion wafers in a ceremonially shielded iron-plated oven.

The Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church (1983), Canon 924 states:
“The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.”

This means that the wine must be naturally fermented with nothing added to it, and the wine itself cannot have soured or become vinegar, nor can it have anything artificial added to it (preservatives, flavours), as does grape juice.

While the Roman Catholic Church generally adheres to the rule that all wine for sacramental use must be pure grape wine and alcoholic, it is accepted that there are some circumstances, where the priest is an alcoholic for example, where it may be necessary to use a wine that is only minimally fermented, called mustum.

Does the wine have to be free of sulfites, or any other chemical additives?

 

[rev_kevin]

Nope, you got it all wrong.

Bread by definition is at least

1. flour mixed with
2. a liquid then
3. baked

Now the wafer used in the Holy Eucharist all satisfies these requirements, for these wafers

1. are made of wheaten flour, mixed with
2. water (no other ingredients are used), then
3. baked

According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is **a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, **into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools.

Grape juice, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether. By definition, wine must at least be

1. made of grape juice that is
2. fermented and contains
3. ethanol from said fermention

It was specific in all Biblical accounts of the Last Supper that the cup Jesus blessed contained wine. Grape juice, on the other hand, was first developed for commercial distribution by Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869, when he halted fermentation by pasteurizing the juice (see the story from Welch’s Company website). Therefore commercial grape juice, or even fresh grape juice is

1. made of grape juice that is
2. not fermented and therefore
3. does not contain ethanol

Clearly, the arguments against the Catholic use of wafers vs the use of some Protestants of grape juice during Eucharistic celebrations cannot be compared.

Ok but what if a religion don’t believe in drinking alcohol. Or what if a person was a alcoholic and can’t drink anything with alcohol. Or what if they can’t have alcohol for medical reasons. Even a little sip can harm them, it can cause the alcololic to go off the wagon. Don’t these people count and aren’t they allowed to take part in it.

 

[Corki]

Ok but what if a religion don’t believe in drinking alcohol. Or what if a person was a alcoholic and can’t drink anything with alcohol. Or what if they can’t have alcohol for medical reasons. Even a little sip can harm them, it can cause the alcololic to go off the wagon. Don’t these people count and aren’t they allowed to take part in it.

As far as I know, the religions that don’t believe in drinking alcohol don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist either so that’s a moot point.

If someone needs to avoid alcohol for health or other (alcoholism) reasons, they recieve Communion under just the species of the host. Since Jesus is full present in either species, they are still taking part in the fullness of Communion.

 

[peary]

Does the wine have to be free of sulfites, or any other chemical additives?

Sulfites are a naturally occurring compound that nature uses to prevent microbial growth. They are found on grapes, onions, garlic, and on many other growing plants. No wine can ever be “sulfite free”, since they come in with the grapes.