NFP and anxiety disorder

[PennitentMan]

Penitent man is blaming his wife and using her as a “hostage” argument at the same time, and not seeking treatment for himself. If even HE were to be treated for depression, the problems could be lessened.

I am on a herbal anti-depressant right now

So, rather than try and solve the problem – PenitentMan is really advocating starting the problem. And notice how he does it:

He claims that the Church and Jesus are wrong here, and the saving of a life in his case – is a wife who threatens suicide, and refuses treatment.

Excuse you!!! I never said that Jesus was wrong. Please do not put words in my mouth. I have always made very specific mention that even if I have lost my trust in the Church’s teachings, I still trust Jesus.
Posting this about me makes me really angry. Keep the debate clean.

I’m trying to solve the problem for my family. And maybe I’m advocating a route that’s not Catholic, but I’m not saying that everyone should, I’m saying that I don’t agree and that for my life this is the best solution. That’s my thoughts and feelings…

Now this is where I become upset, because PennitentMan has spoken on my behalf here in a tricky way: he has used me, and all those like me as a weapon in his argument – although I definitely do not agree with him. So, he has dragged my name into the mud. I have Zero sympathy for that kind of argument.
QUOTE]

I don’t even know where you are getting this…how have I used you? I have always argued against you, not spoken on your behalf…You are not making sense to me.
My point is exactly opposed to yours on NFP. I totally don’t understand how I have sinned against you, dragged your name through the mud, etc.

If you perceive a sin against you, I appologise, but I don’t understand how you can say that.

I’m doung the best I can, for me poersonally and as a family.

And as for Ray’s post, from my first post that I made here, I had no idea what wat the matter in my marriage. Only after months of searching, reading and questioing did I realise that NFP had a part in this.
If you care to chronologically read through my posts, you’ll see how my situation and my understanding developed to the root of my problems.

Once again, I am on anti-depressants. Did anyone ask me this before? I don’t recall that they did…don’t put words in my mouth, like I’m not seeking help for myself. I am in the way my limited time and budget allows.

My problem is one of short term solutions, since I have no trust in NFP.

Oh, and I have also looked up the local NFP teachers and have contacted them, I am awaiting their response as we speak. (ISee, I do take advice)

And as for NFP being the perfect solution, for some people there HAS to be a perfect solution, or familes will break up. That is why this thread was started, no? Because of anxieties?

The more I looked at my married life and realised all the issues that stemmed from NFP I realise that we cannot use it anymore without something giving.
The lack of intimacy will come back with all it’s myriad of issues and stresses, the danger of another pregnancy is very high, and then the dangers with health, mental and physical.

I’m sorry if you guys can’t understand where I’m coming from, but I think my issue is too close to home for you…it brings out bad things in you.

and Apricot Yogurt…it’s not the children that’s a failure…again with putting words in my mouth!
It’s the METHOD of avoiding conception that failed.
How can the child be a filaure? He hasn’t done anything. The child itself is a surprise, sure, but not, never a failure.

 

[kage_ar]

Good you reached out to local NFP teachers!

I also encourage you to find a way to get your family a support system. Move, have people move to where you are - something, please get some emotional support for your family.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

and Apricot Yogurt…it’s not the children that’s a failure…again with putting words in my mouth!
It’s the METHOD of avoiding conception that failed.
How can the child be a filaure? He hasn’t done anything. The child itself is a surprise, sure, but not, never a failure.

*You *have been refering to NFP “failing”.How can the conception of a child be a failure? Untimely perhaps. A suprise perhaps. You have been using the term “NFP failure” not “NFP suprise”. And that “NFP failure” is your child. That “NFP failure” will no doubt delight your heart when he takes his first steps, says “Daddy”, for the first time, runs up to you for a cuddle and cares for you as you get old.

 

[dulcissima]

I don’t really understand why you would feel so safe with contraception…it takes away your ability to actively use your own knowledge and observations when trying to avoid pregnancy. Birth control is not perfect, not even any where close to perfect. Why do you think that the abortion rate has increased so significantly with the increased availability of contraceptive methods…? Because more people are engaging in sexual relations with the mindset that a baby being conceived as a result is totally unacceptable. PM, can’t you see that that is where your intimacy problems lie? Going from NFP to contraception is going to make things that much worse…and with no guarantees of there being more success in avoiding a pregnancy.

"Abortion rates did not decrease with increased access to contraception – they increased instead. So did the pregnancy rates – the only thing that decreased was the birth rate (due to increased abortion). "

“The contraceptive mentality holds that sex is primarily for pleasure, and that offspring are optional. This is the glue which binds contraception and abortion.”

“Contraception is imperfect, and even with perfect use of it women still got pregnant. This is a critical factor in how widespread contraception use resulted in increased abortion rates.”

nrfctwo.web.aplus.net/content/view/37/40/

Look at the fruits of what it is that you want to bring into your marriage and ask yourself why you are putting more faith in contraception than you are in our Church?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I am on a herbal anti-depressant right now

So is my wife, rather than taking the prescription medication that three MD’s told her to take. The herbs are not nearly as effective as the proper anti-depressant. Also, I am not aware of any herbal anti-depressant which is effective at reducing sexual drive.

Excuse you!!! I never said that Jesus was wrong. Please do not put words in my mouth. I have always made very specific mention that even if I have lost my trust in the Church’s teachings, I still trust Jesus.

You are on a Catholic forum. You have said the church is wrong, which Jesus founded and to whom the power to bind and loose was given. It is also Jesus’ body.

Posting this about me makes me really angry. Keep the debate clean.

The debate was made dirty the moment you claimed:

I was once like you guys, swaering by it…but live it and then we’ll talk.
…
I don’t even know where you are getting this…how have I used you? I have always argued against you, not spoken on your behalf…You are not making sense to me.

You claimed a likeness to all of us, including me. And the history of my situation is quite close to yours as described so far on this thread – mine is even worse than what you have described so far.
The implication of your above statement is that those who have suffered an NFP failure and herbal antidepressants which don’t help – will always agree with you. I have both points, and I don’t agree with you – so I am not a liar in saying that you dragged my name through the mud. I had ALREADY told you my situation was similar to yours when you ignored my first major post.

If you perceive a sin against you, I appologise, but I don’t understand how you can say that.

I’m doung the best I can, for me poersonally and as a family.

Again, Bull, if it includes saying the church is wrong and that contraception is not intrinsically evil. Or again, you can seek professional psychiatric help – or even MD based help which goes beyond self-medicated, low efficiency, herbal remedies. My wife’s gynecologist prescribed a dose of perscription SSRI – a month’s worth cost $3 at wal-mart. But no, she won’t take it…

Once again, I am on anti-depressants. Did anyone ask me this before? I don’t recall that they did…don’t put words in my mouth, like I’m not seeking help for myself. I am in the way my limited time and budget allows.

By the way, most anti-depressants (prescription grade) are rather inexpensive.

And as for NFP being the perfect solution, for some people there HAS to be a perfect solution, or familes will break up. That is why this thread was started, no? Because of anxieties?

Yes, but there isn’t always a perfect solution. Sometimes one’s spouse is just cruel and sick. By the way, I am not with my family now – but there is more hope now than when I was with them.

The more I looked at my married life and realised all the issues that stemmed from NFP I realise that we cannot use it anymore without something giving.

Like leaving the family to find a better job, which solves both problems at once and perhaps creates another one?

I’m sorry if you guys can’t understand where I’m coming from, but I think my issue is too close to home for you…it brings out bad things in you.

I am sorry that where you are coming from brings out bad things in you too. Problems close to home make everyone sore.

 

[kage_ar]

Pm - if you are still reading, one more thing - remember this.

We are instructed to love God more than anything, more than ourselves, more than our spouse, more than our kids, more than our jobs more than our marriage.

That is vastly different than what the world tells us, and it sounds odd.

Strive to love God, Jesus in the Eucharist MORE than you love your wife and family.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

The more I looked at my married life and realised all the issues that stemmed from NFP I realise that we cannot use it anymore without something giving.
The lack of intimacy will come back with all it’s myriad of issues and stresses, the danger of another pregnancy is very high, and then the dangers with health, mental and physical.

A question based on how you worded this: Given that you have no need to avoid intimacy at the moment, has your wife become any more open after the pregnancy was realized or is that intimacy still just as rare overall as it was before, but just with different reasons being used for avoiding intimacy?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Also, although it is obvious to most people famliar with NFP – NFP is not a single method, but a group of methods based on observation. To say “NFP has a 1% failure rate” is a generalization which doesn’t apply to all methods.

For example, St. Theresa of Calcutta had people who were really motivated not to have children at their time in life – because their poverty was that bad. Pulling dying people from garbage heaps where they are left to die is far worse than the poverty of PennitentMan who can still afford condoms!

The people who really need to avoid can use NFP methods which have much better than 1% failure rate, as a survey of St. Theresa’s motivated population can attest. I find it very interesting that the people discussing NFP often seem to overlook that the journals publishing data on the subject are using the less effective methods as the standard… mostly because they don’t believe the auditors would believe the ridiculously low “failure” rates.

My “failure” was a phase I failure due to risking the number of days before ovulation – which although I was safe according to the “Rule” my wife was extra fertile, or so was I. However, I clearly could have waited until phase III as was taught for those who “had” to avoid pregnancy altogether – so although technically the NFP rule “failed” – we knew the risk, and could have avoided it.

ccli.org/nfp/basics/effectiveness-p02.php

However, Dominic is the dearest Son, and I wouldn’t wish him gone for anything.

 

[Ardent_Fire]

I am new here and I found this thread to be of great interest.

I’ll be getting married at 32 and have started taking NFP classes. I can relate to the anxiety people may feel at the idea of NFP. There’s a lot on my mind and aside from the arguments either way, my reasonings for choosing NFP are very personal. But I’m going to keep this somewhat short (or at least try) because I don’t feel like writing a book right now. Let’s just say that apparently God is trying to hammer home the “TRUST ME” message to me a LOT.

People ask why you don’t hear about the 1% when it comes to things like getting your tubes tied or a vasectomy.

Well, here I am. Your 1% from a failed vasectomy right here.

PenitentMan, I am not very experienced in life like you are, and I’m not walking in your shoes. So I don’t really feel in a place to say anything except that my heart really goes out to you. And for what it’s worth, and hopefully this doesn’t sound patronizing, but I am praying for you and your family. I hope and pray that things work out one way or another – or that God be with you when it seems like they aren’t.

All I can say to anyone out there is that I’d like to believe there is a great big cosmic reason why things happen the way they do, even when they don’t always make sense. I know I will have a lot of questions for God when I kick the bucket.

My parents were really scared when my mom was pregnant with me. They did not believe they were ready for another child. On top of that, it was a difficult pregnancy for my mom because her placenta got torn. (Note to pregnant women: don’t ride in a jeep and let some bonehead friend drive it across a dry creek bed.) I imagine at times she must have been so scared when she kept hemmorrhaging. At one point they had to talk to a priest because the doctors thought I was dead. To make a long story short I was also born REALLY premature (for the 70s) with a lot of health complications and a spell in intensive care, and she lost a lot of blood.

All I know is that it has made me really glad to be alive and I feel a strong internal sense of purpose in my life. For whatever reason, God really wanted me here. It’s amazing how much events in your life can shape who you are before and at the moment of your birth. And I think my mom was so glad to finally have a girl after all those boys. It’s been really crazy and pretty scary at times, especially in the last few years since my mother’s unexpected death. That was like my worst fear in life coming true. I have had a history of depression – at times I, too, struggle with anxiety. But so far I have had a really awesome life and at times I feel very humbled that God chose me to be here as his instrument, especially when I fail.

So all I can say here, after reading all of this thread, and perhaps I’m just in a really philosophical mood, is that I hope that whatever we are going through, whether it’s births, deaths, sufferings – that by the grace of God we can view it in the perspective of eternity and our salvation history. My prayers are with you all and I ask that you all pray for me!

And, ah, I tried to keep this short.

 

[monicatholic]

All I know is that it has made me really glad to be alive and I feel a strong internal sense of purpose in my life. For whatever reason, God really wanted me here. It’s amazing how much events in your life can shape who you are before and at the moment of your birth. And I think my mom was so glad to finally have a girl after all those boys. It’s been really crazy and pretty scary at times, especially in the last few years since my mother’s unexpected death. That was like my worst fear in life coming true. I have had a history of depression – at times I, too, struggle with anxiety. But so far I have had a really awesome life and at times I feel very humbled that God chose me to be here as his instrument, especially when I fail.

So all I can say here, after reading all of this thread, and perhaps I’m just in a really philosophical mood, is that I hope that whatever we are going through, whether it’s births, deaths, sufferings – that by the grace of God we can view it in the perspective of eternity and our salvation history. My prayers are with you all and I ask that you all pray for me!

littlebury, this was excellent. Human Dignity 101. it’s the pre-req for so much of everything else.

 

[PennitentMan]

Good day.

I wanted to give you all some feedback on my recent goings on.

Since my last post, Jan 18th, I have been trying to make contact with the local NFP Chapter that serves my region as well as our Archdiocese’s Family centre.

I have left numerous messages and e-mails, trying to get hold of anyone, explaining myself over and over again, but I have not received a single response back from either of them.

I can’t believe that there is no assistance here and that’s making me a bit upset right now.

But I totally get what you all are saying in all your posts, and you represent the Catholic way 100%. I respect that.

But for us, the anxiety levels are getting very high, (It fits into the OP’s question, so I never starting a new thread). I don’t know what I’m going to do, but I feel like I’m being pushed away wherever I seek help.

Ah well.

It’s not 100% critical now, not life or death, my wife is coping nicely, but in the near future, who knows what we’ll do…only time will tell. I’m praying a lot and reading a lot.

PM

 

[Ardent_Fire]

I’ll keep praying for you, PM, and the OP as well!

You guys were discussing Crocker’s article in Crisis on NFP – when I read that article I really took a lot of it to be mostly sarcastic and tongue in cheek. I can see why people were offended but I can’t help but take the article with a grain of salt given that it is laced with sarcasm. (I mean, “honey mow the lawn while I watch football – and communication is the first step towards divorce?” C’mon…)

I still have a positive view of NFP and I know of a lot of people that love it and insist it works. It seems to me Crocker was using satire and thumbing his nose at Catholics that approach or regard NFP with the same mentality and expectations as people that use artificial contraception.