NFP and Contraception once again

[Rau]

John Henry Cardinal Newman said “ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate.” (Apologia pro vita Sua). [Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude

, Ignatius Press, 1995. p 82-4].

Doubt and Difficulty
“A negative doubt is a close relation to ignorance. An opinion is an assent of the mind but with a well-founded fear that the opposite may be true.” With an unhealthy doubt, “a person suspends judgment even when the evidence is conclusive and completely adequate. This is skepticism, intellectual cowardice……A difficulty is a problem, a not-seeing how two realities fit together….a situation we do not yet understand and perhaps will never understand. It is a limitation on our knowledge, a passing or permanent limitation.” [Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude, Ignatius Press, 1995. p 82-4].

Thus one may have a difficulty, but to doubt is unCatholic and thus not part of the real Catholic.

Very erudite references, but few of us imperfect Catholics are likely to choose their words with such understanding and insight.

If one has a difficulty, one has already accepted the facts, but something is not yet resolved. This may not be the situation. Limbo was once taught - I always had great doubts about that.

 

[Thorns]

Talking on the internet or face to face is still TALKING. Avoiding pregnancy by applying NFP involves not engaging in the marital act. Contraception is simulating the marital act - a bit like a chat session attempts to simulate a face to face conversation (if you must use that analogy).

There is no moral issue at stake in communicating by means other than face to face conversation. The marital act “subverted” with condoms is entirely different to not engaging in the act.

Not totally accurate. With NFP you ARE having sex, only its limited to infertile periods with the intent to avoid pregnancy.

 

[Thorns]

No, not having sex to avoid pregnancy is not at all like simulating sex in order to avoid pregnancy.

See post #120.

 

[jilly4ski]

Not totally accurate. With NFP you ARE having sex, only its limited to infertile periods with the intent to avoid pregnancy.

This is inaccurate at best. With NFP you are not having sex to avoid pregnancy. You are saying, “hmm we are fertile now lets not have sex in order to avoid pregnancy.” Then later you observe that you are infertile and can continue your sex life as it was before you were trying to avoid a pregnancy. If you were avoiding pregnancy by complete abstinence and then learned that you were infertile, you would not then be engaging in sex with the intent to avoid pregnancy. That is a misuse of the word intent, it is having marital relations with the knowledge that a chance of conception is very low. Marital relations are the norm for married couples, NFP is just periodic abstinence, and it has the same intent as complete abstinence.

 

[Rau]

Not totally accurate. With NFP you ARE having sex, only its limited to infertile periods with the intent to avoid pregnancy.

Yes, I may have had sex last week and not this - so what? The licitness of the act - whether that ACT is subjected to contraception or not - is the thing being judged. No act, no possibility of contraception.

We are not required to seek out pregnancy at every opportunity, or at any particular opportunity.

FYI the church addresses the morality of ones approach to sex and children. For example there is an obligation not to marry if you NEVER want children. And there is a requirement to have proper reason to intentionally and systematically avoid fertile periods.

 

[Abu]

Rau #119
Limbo was once taught - I always had great doubts about that.

The reality is that “Limbo was never a defined truth of faith.” The Ratzinger Report, p147].

Vatican II, Lumen Gentium:
16. “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.”

Limbo has never ever been a dogma of faith. Nor defined as a doctrine.

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI approved it for publication.
Notion of Limbo Isn’t Closed, Expert Says
Adds It’s a Theological Opinion That Can Be Defended
ewtn.com/library/Theology/znotionlimbo.HTM

 

[Rau]

The reality is that “Limbo was never a defined truth of faith.” The Ratzinger Report, p147].

Vatican II, Lumen Gentium:
16. “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.”

Limbo has never ever been a dogma of faith. Nor defined as a doctrine.

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized.
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI approved it for publication.
Notion of Limbo Isn’t Closed, Expert Says
Adds It’s a Theological Opinion That Can Be Defended
ewtn.com/library/Theology/znotionlimbo.HTM

Not relevant. It was taught, so as far as I was concerned, it was part of the faith. I had doubts about it!

 

[thewanderer]

Not totally accurate. With NFP you ARE having sex, only its limited to infertile periods with the intent to avoid pregnancy.

Well… thats not entirely accurate.

NFP used to avoid children does not in any way shape or form require sex during the infertile period. A couple who ends up abstaining during the infertile period, for whatever reason, is still using NFP to avoid if they are collecting information about their fertility and using that knowledge to decide to abstain while fertile. The method of NFP to avoid does not involve any kind of sex. Rather, it involves abstinance when fertile. When not fertile you can do whatever the heck you want and it won’t have an effect on whether or not you are practicing NFP to avoid. A lot of people seem to make this mistake of confusing the method of NFP to avoid (abstinence when fertile) with whatever the couple does while infertile but the two really aren’t the same at all.

 

[Xantippe]

Well… thats not entirely accurate.

NFP used to avoid children does not in any way shape or form require sex during the infertile period. A couple who ends up abstaining during the infertile period, for whatever reason, is still using NFP to avoid if they are collecting information about their fertility and using that knowledge to decide to abstain while fertile. The method of NFP to avoid does not involve any kind of sex. Rather, it involves abstinance when fertile. When not fertile you can do whatever the heck you want and it won’t have an effect on whether or not you are practicing NFP to avoid. A lot of people seem to make this mistake of confusing the method of NFP to avoid (abstinence when fertile) with whatever the couple does while infertile but the two really aren’t the same at all.

That’s a very good point.