NFP vs. Vasectomy

[Perian]

Fair warning-- your attitude on children is incredibly unattractive. Even if you do find a woman who also does not want children, your reasons are repugnantly petty and absolutely are not limited to children. Any woman intelligent enough to hold her own with an accomplished linguist will know that we are very likely to become as dependent and untesponsive and “gross” and as babies in the end. Insurmountable selfishness in one area of life always influences other areas of life.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

My meaning is that if you are not willing to be totally tolerating, even to the point of illness, or bodily functions of a child, then it does not bode well for your willingness or ability to be as selfless and giving in all circumstances to a spouse. It’s not that fact that they are kids, but that you have indicated an aversion to sticking around for the ugly side of life.

I will also say, that having kids might surprise you. You will never know how deep is your capacity for loving until you have a child. Maybe you are just being too rational about it.

Other vocations? If holy orders doesn’t appeal to you, perhaps you are being called to a lay, but single life. If God wants you to be married, He will send you a wife who is unable to have children. Someone who fears being alone for the rest of her life because of it.

Perhaps He wants you to adopt older children. Past the baby stage and difficult to place because most people want that part. Or to foster teenagers. It would be a wonderful calling. You could be saving someone’s life, especially from war torn areas. Especially if you can pick up languages easily.

By the way, my father was an astronomer and I loved the discussions on the latest science find around the table. The chasing after eclipses from state to state, trying to find a place without clouds…the looking at the planets through the telescopes, and star parties in my front yard. I was the only kid in school who knew what sidereal time was…
I wanted to be an archaeologist. I would have reveled in a household like you describe.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Fair warning-- your attitude on children is incredibly unattractive. Even if you do find a woman who also does not want children, your reasons are repugnantly petty and absolutely are not limited to children. Any woman intelligent enough to hold her own with an accomplished linguist will know that we are very likely to become as dependent and untesponsive and “gross” and as babies in the end. Insurmountable selfishness in one area of life always influences other areas of life.

There are whole groups of people out there, both men and women, who don’t want children. Some of them you might find have reasons that are more positive than the OP’s, but others with reasons that the same or even more subjectively negative than the OP’s. This idea that a man must want children to be married – or to even attract women – is silly. The relationship a husband has with his wife is not the same that a father has with a child, and equating the two (by saying that not being interested in one means not being truly interested in the other) is untrue.

And let’s discuss this matter of “insurmountable selfishness”. When a man loves a woman he enters into a partnership with her, to love and to cherish. Where is the selfishness? If he provides for her and supports her and protects her and does right by his wife then who is the party that is not being served? How is a loving and caring childfree marriage selfish?

 

[gracepoole]

There are whole groups of people out there, both men and women, who don’t want children. Some of them you might find have reasons that are more positive than the OP’s, but others with reasons that the same or even more subjectively negative than the OP’s. This idea that a man must want children to be married – or to even attract women – is silly.

While I respect your opinion, this is a Catholic site. The Church most definitely doesn’t teach that this is “silly.” It teaches that this is a requirement for a valid marriage. And since the OP has indicated that he wants to have a Catholic marriage, it’s not surprising that the view you’re espousing isn’t being voiced. In essence, you’re describing a Catholic teaching and the Church itself as silly. Not what I would recommend here…

The relationship a husband has with his wife is not the same that a father has with a child, and equating the two (by saying that not being interested in one means not being truly interested in the other) is untrue.

The point that various posters have made is that many times, a spouse is called to care for his wife as though she were a child (in times of sickness, for example). This is absolutely true. Husbands and wives are also needy, expensive, moody… Sorry to burst a bubble here.

And let’s discuss this matter of “insurmountable selfishness”. When a man loves a woman he enters into a partnership with her, to love and to cherish. Where is the selfishness? If he provides for her and supports her and protects her and does right by his wife then who is the party that is not being served? How is a loving and caring childfree marriage selfish?

Again, you’re confused about Catholic teaching in general.

 

[manualman]

I guess, but parenting isn’t something you should put minimal effort into. You need to throw your entire life away for it.

Interesting, isn’t it? Although in a flippant and denigrating manner, you just defined the word… LOVE.

Don’t feel too bad, most people these days don’t have any idea what the word means. You’re closer to getting it than most people. A curious thing happens when you give yourself away for the sake of the beloved: life takes on more meaning than it ever had before. Keep that in mind when everything else turns to ashes and everything that has brought you gratification to date ceases to do so.

When that day comes, don’t despair, but remember this thread.

 

[1ke]

I guess, but parenting isn’t something you should put minimal effort into. You need to throw your entire life away for it…

Exactly. What profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

Marriage and family designed by God bring about the total self-giving of the Cross, the emptying of ourselves for another, which conforms us to Christ, makes us holy, and helps us enter Heaven.

 

[Mongol]

Have you ever considered the unholiness of that statement. Imagine saying that about any other age or race of people.

I’m not sure if saying I dislike being around kids is a terribly unholy thing to say. It’s not nearly on the same level as saying you dislike, say a certain nationality. Surely you’ll agree that it takes patience to be around kids–patience that I don’t have yet. It’s not that I hate kids, like in the sense of wishing harm upon them. It’s just that I personally don’t have the patience to tolerate childish behavior. That said, Jesus did say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these, so perhaps I need to work on my patience.

I think the jury is still out on that whole statement.

Well played, made me laugh.

http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Sweet+nip+jesus+_d436569f70e1734d90c04d0f625dc242.jpg

Good point, but women know to cover their mouths when they cough.
That does not matter, when you share a life with someone and a household, covering ones mouth is not even a factor in the sharing of bacteria and germs. It sounds like you do not have an accurate picture of what marriage is. And why God created it.

From a Catholic perspective God created marriage for the purpose of giving kids a good environment to grow up in, right? Is that accurate or are there other reasons too?

That is a weird view you have. I suppose you could have someone who has a child for a selfish reason. Maybe even a lot of people do. But that does not change the morality of your decision or want to get married without being open to life.

Good point, that was kind of a red herring in retrospect.

Your aversion to kids smacks of either an physiological condition

Which physiological condition? I suffer from a psychological condition (moderate to severe OCD) but not any physiological ones.

or an immature understanding of love, marriage and the purpose thereof.

That’s more likely I think.

Your point is not clear

Sorry about that. It was an imperfect analogy, very much so in retrospect. Maybe it would be more appropriate to say that if I didn’t like kids, I shouldn’t be a parent, and if I don’t like pets, I shouldn’t be a veterinarian.

Perhaps it may be helpful to you to explore the differences between humans and animals theologically.

Sure, humans and animals are theologically different, but the point was about selfishness. I can’t be perceived as an entirely selfish dude if I have a four-legged baby girl, right? Maybe my hypothetical wife and I can be pet people instead of kid people.

 

[Mongol]

My husband has witnessed me vomiting many times – he’s held my hair or a bucket for me. He’s seen me wake with drool on the pillow, heard me snore, seen me at my absolute physical worst. I’ve given him many colds over the years (even when one covers her mouth while coughing, a family lives in close quarters). Of course, all of the reverse is true, as well. A wife and husband must be prepared to see one another at one’s ugliest and grossest.

I guess so. Maybe I’m looking at marriage through a rose-colored lens.

No. Why? Because I’m Catholic. The Church most definitely does not view the desire for children as selfish. I have to ask why you want to commit to Catholicism while considering a marriage that is not open to life. ?? That’s not a Catholic marriage.

I guess that’s the source of my struggle.

Children are how the Church, human tradition, the world continues. If you feel that parents like me “make people be around your kids,” you’re viewing the world from an extremely modernist perspective that seeks to separate children and the continuation of human life from the frivolity and amusements of child-free adult lives.

I wouldn’t call a child-free (yet married) adult life “frivolity and amusement”. Suppose the spouses complement one another well and as a result they’re able to more wholly dedicate themselves to their work/service of others etc?

:tiphat: Thank you!

You’re quite welcome. I’m always so happy to hear about people who are in long marriages. Regardless of my feelings on having kids, I feel like broken marriages are the greatest tragedy. Keep up the good work. Do you have anything that comes to mind that helps you overcome problems in your marriage?

I’ve got to ask… You keep mentioning that you “love women.” What does that mean, exactly? What do you mean by love?

What I mean is that I’m very attracted to them on a romantic level, I suppose.

 

[gracepoole]

What I mean is that I’m very attracted to them on a romantic level, I suppose.

That doesn’t really help, unfortunately. It sounds like you want the beginning of a relationship. That doesn’t last. There are certainly many moments when it resurfaces and is reignited. But there’s no relationship (parent, friend, lover, colleague…) that doesn’t reach a point of familiarity, which lessens the “romantic” kind of love or admiration that was initially so powerful. That romantic level that exists at the beginning is very intoxicating but it doesn’t keep people married. When it wears off, that’s when I think many marriages fail. People seem unprepared for the long haul – to see their spouses in a different light. But truly, it’s only when that initial awe wears off that love gets real. My husband and I have had ups and downs. But those down periods make the up periods absolutely glorious. Truly.