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dbradio
Guest
Since homelitics do not permit the teaching of right and wrong, anymore, how can we instill the difference in our children?
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
Who said homiletics “do not permit the teaching of right and wrong”? Such an idea is totally foreign to the Church’s understanding of the function and purpose of a homily.
Deacon Ed
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dbradio
Guest
If you’ve experienced a preaching lately, you’re far ahead of me.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Say what??
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puzzleannie
Guest
please provide an authoritative source from the Vatican, Ratzinger’s office, national council of bishops, Vatican II document, or whatever you are using as a basis for your claim that homiletics do not allow thus and so. Homiletics is a seminary course in how to compose and deliver homilies at Mass. Perhaps you can provide evidence of what is or is not being taught in seminaries on this topic. the homily is supposed to enlarge on the lectionary readings of the day and help us reflect on them, grasp their meaning and apply their message to our daily lives.
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Gratias_Grace
Guest
Sorry, I don’t understand??? Who thaught you this?
G. Grace
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mlchance
Guest
It’s not the Church’s job to teach my children right from wrong. That job belongs to my wife and I.
The biggest portion of the blame for the generally poor degree of catechesis among children today can’t be dumped on the Church’s plate. That blame belongs to parents who refuse to keep the promise they make when their children are baptised. It is the domestic church moreso than any other facet of the Church that is failing children today.
– Mark L. Chance.
The biggest portion of the blame for the generally poor degree of catechesis among children today can’t be dumped on the Church’s plate. That blame belongs to parents who refuse to keep the promise they make when their children are baptised. It is the domestic church moreso than any other facet of the Church that is failing children today.
– Mark L. Chance.
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dbradio
Guest
Perhaps the “Church has failed miserably” in teaching right from wrong. The line is blurred. In many cases, the roles have been completely exchanged. With regard to child abuse and molestation, several of our bishops are aiding and abetting NAMBLA in its quest to mainstream adult/child love.
I want to maintain the right to discipline.
However, what do we do with young parents who have not been given a clue as to how to rear children in the way that is right?
Why shouldn’t our shepherds preach against sins of abortion, lewd and lascivious activity, bullying, capital punishment, incest, euthanasia, cheating, illegal drugs, molestation, abuse, and on and on?
We have a generation of vipers who have no idea of values and who are unable to separate right from wrong.
If it’s not delivered from the pulpit, where will some of these innocents get their values?
In our diocese, the diocesan weekly paper goes unwanted and unread in more than 30% of delivered households. Poor, mandated stewardship, alone. But, there goes the Bishop’s teaching with a significant number of human beings. Unless they live in an anomaolus parish, they certainly don’t get it from the pulpit, either.
Church fathers, particularly Paul, admonished, preached, guided, and generally laid the law down so that the Church would know how to behave.
Now, it’s microskirts in church, drugs on the street corner, abortions in legal clinics, and children having children.
Who will teach?
I want to maintain the right to discipline.
However, what do we do with young parents who have not been given a clue as to how to rear children in the way that is right?
Why shouldn’t our shepherds preach against sins of abortion, lewd and lascivious activity, bullying, capital punishment, incest, euthanasia, cheating, illegal drugs, molestation, abuse, and on and on?
We have a generation of vipers who have no idea of values and who are unable to separate right from wrong.
If it’s not delivered from the pulpit, where will some of these innocents get their values?
In our diocese, the diocesan weekly paper goes unwanted and unread in more than 30% of delivered households. Poor, mandated stewardship, alone. But, there goes the Bishop’s teaching with a significant number of human beings. Unless they live in an anomaolus parish, they certainly don’t get it from the pulpit, either.
Church fathers, particularly Paul, admonished, preached, guided, and generally laid the law down so that the Church would know how to behave.
Now, it’s microskirts in church, drugs on the street corner, abortions in legal clinics, and children having children.
Who will teach?
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
An interesting accusation – but I note that you don’t support it with any documentation…
What’s preventing you from doing as you please?
We offer the teachings, but they have to learn.
Have you heard all our shepherds? Do you know *for a fact *that they are not teaching these things? Oh, the actual terms may not be used, but the meanings of the teachings are clearly there – for those who have ears to hear.
And you know this because…?
So, five or ten minutes from the pulpit is expected to counteract the other 10,070 minutes of the week where contrary messages are presented? Seems a little disproportionate to me. But, it’s always easier to blame the clergy than to take responsibility for our own failures to be models of righteousness.
How do you know it’s “unread”?
And then Paul left them alone to grow in Christ – only sending letters when he heard they were slipping. This is the situation today: the bishops write pastoral letters when people are slipping. The difference is that the people don’t take the time to read them, to understand them, and to put them into practice.
And you think this is new? It’s been this way *forever *-- there is nothing new in this. In 1947 Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book entitled Family and Civilization in 1947. Among the points raised in this book are:
- Marriage loses its sacredness; is frequently broken by divorce.
- Traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is lost.
- Feminist movements abound.
- Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.
- Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity, and rebellion.
- Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept family responsibilities
- Growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.
- Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions and sex-related crimes.
According to the teachings of the Catholic Church: “The parents are the first and best of teachers…”
Deacon Ed
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dbradio
Guest
How can they learn, how can they teach, if they have no teaching and they have nothing/no one to learn from?
Please tell me why teaching/admonishing from the pulpit is wrong.
Please tell me why teaching/admonishing from the pulpit is wrong.
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dbradio
Guest
Meanwhile, here is a strong plea for parish priests to preach against abortion from the pulpit. Does this not say that conscience-forming can emanate from the ambo? We need lots of this on various sins…
Priests urged to oppose abortion
“We offend God if we do not address the issue”
Matthew R. Gomez
MELBOURNE All priests are pro-life but not enough talk about it during Mass, according to a fellow clergyman.
Father Frank A. Pavone, national director of Priests for Life, told a group of pro-life supporters in Melbourne that priests need to be more involved in the pro-life cause.
“The direction comes from the top,” he said. “The pope has consistently addressed the sanctity of human life. The Holy Father has asked us to oppose abortion and promote life, but some priests are fearful of approaching the topic at Mass.”
Father Pavone said some clergy members are afraid a consistent anti-abortion message will wash over parishioners, and may appear insensitive to women who have had abortions. The New York priest said the truth of the issue must be spoken, and there may be a few hurt feelings.
“When Jesus asked the apostles to go out and make disciples of all nations, he did not, tell them to only speak to those who wanted to hear the message,” said Father Pavone. “People often try to suppress the truth by ignoring the message, but it is a risk priests must take in order to end abortion.”
The group of pro-life supporters gathered Sept. 9 at Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Melbourne, roughly 10 miles away from the Aware Women’s Clinic, an abortion provider. Father Pavone joined a rosary procession outside the abortion facility the next day. He also spoke with a gathering of priests from Several Brevard County parishes about their role in helping to end the evil of abortion, “There has to be a priestly presence in the pro-life cause,” he said. "Catholics look to us for guidance, and we had better be there for them. Abortion is more than just a single issue. All life, divinely created, is at the foundation of our faith "
The New York-based Priests for Life is an association that provides pro-life information and encouragement for Catholic clergy. Father Pavone said his organization understands the concerns of priests regarding the abortion debate, but said they must press on despite any fear of offense.
“We offend God if we do not address the issue,” said the priest. “If we are silent on abortion, we are hurting these women who have made a terrible mistake that they no doubt regret. If we do not speak against abortion, we send a signal that we either don’t know or don’t care about the suffering of women exploited by the abortion industry. Preaching the truth will not hurt them.”
Father Pavone said his organization offers homilies, Scripture verses, and other practical information to help priests address pro-life topics at the pulpit. He has witnessed only two people ever leave a Mass because the priest spoke vigorously against abortion.
“Think of the women who can be saved from making the same mistake of killing a baby,” he said. “All parishioners need to hear it today, tomorrow, and next week. Abortion hurts babies, and it hurts women. Our responsibility is to prevent the suffering of our people.”
Father Pavone likened the silence of priests on abortion to the actions of Pontius Pilate at Jesus’ trial.
“Don’t let the yelling of the crowds silence the voice of your conscience,” he said. "Pilate did that. He was not an evil man. He was a weak man. As priests, we need to be strong in our opposition to abortion. Silence and weakness plays into the hands of the devil.
“Some parishioners may be alienated by the pro-life message, but our first concern is not to have the parishioners alienate themselves from God.”
Priests urged to oppose abortion
“We offend God if we do not address the issue”
Matthew R. Gomez
MELBOURNE All priests are pro-life but not enough talk about it during Mass, according to a fellow clergyman.
Father Frank A. Pavone, national director of Priests for Life, told a group of pro-life supporters in Melbourne that priests need to be more involved in the pro-life cause.
“The direction comes from the top,” he said. “The pope has consistently addressed the sanctity of human life. The Holy Father has asked us to oppose abortion and promote life, but some priests are fearful of approaching the topic at Mass.”
Father Pavone said some clergy members are afraid a consistent anti-abortion message will wash over parishioners, and may appear insensitive to women who have had abortions. The New York priest said the truth of the issue must be spoken, and there may be a few hurt feelings.
“When Jesus asked the apostles to go out and make disciples of all nations, he did not, tell them to only speak to those who wanted to hear the message,” said Father Pavone. “People often try to suppress the truth by ignoring the message, but it is a risk priests must take in order to end abortion.”
The group of pro-life supporters gathered Sept. 9 at Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Melbourne, roughly 10 miles away from the Aware Women’s Clinic, an abortion provider. Father Pavone joined a rosary procession outside the abortion facility the next day. He also spoke with a gathering of priests from Several Brevard County parishes about their role in helping to end the evil of abortion, “There has to be a priestly presence in the pro-life cause,” he said. "Catholics look to us for guidance, and we had better be there for them. Abortion is more than just a single issue. All life, divinely created, is at the foundation of our faith "
The New York-based Priests for Life is an association that provides pro-life information and encouragement for Catholic clergy. Father Pavone said his organization understands the concerns of priests regarding the abortion debate, but said they must press on despite any fear of offense.
“We offend God if we do not address the issue,” said the priest. “If we are silent on abortion, we are hurting these women who have made a terrible mistake that they no doubt regret. If we do not speak against abortion, we send a signal that we either don’t know or don’t care about the suffering of women exploited by the abortion industry. Preaching the truth will not hurt them.”
Father Pavone said his organization offers homilies, Scripture verses, and other practical information to help priests address pro-life topics at the pulpit. He has witnessed only two people ever leave a Mass because the priest spoke vigorously against abortion.
“Think of the women who can be saved from making the same mistake of killing a baby,” he said. “All parishioners need to hear it today, tomorrow, and next week. Abortion hurts babies, and it hurts women. Our responsibility is to prevent the suffering of our people.”
Father Pavone likened the silence of priests on abortion to the actions of Pontius Pilate at Jesus’ trial.
“Don’t let the yelling of the crowds silence the voice of your conscience,” he said. "Pilate did that. He was not an evil man. He was a weak man. As priests, we need to be strong in our opposition to abortion. Silence and weakness plays into the hands of the devil.
“Some parishioners may be alienated by the pro-life message, but our first concern is not to have the parishioners alienate themselves from God.”
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Deacon_Ed
Guest
Now you ask me to support your original assertion? You began this thread by asking:
I asked you why you thought this was the case and you haven’t even attempted to answer my question. You make all kinds of assertions, but do not support them.
Deacon Ed
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Gratias_Grace
Guest
Gratias Grace:
dbradio:
dbradio:
dbradio; the priests shall talk about the topic for the day, as it is listed in the calender of the Church (it takes three years to go through teh whole Bible. Church-year A+B+C). If the topic of the day are about the mercyful samaritan, the priest doesn’t talk about abortions.
At the first sunday of Advent we started at Church-year A. Link to the readings of Church-year (Click at the day you want and the readings for that day pups up):
easterbrooks.com/cgi-bin/Cathcal.cgi?200501
The priests are to teach right according the catholic faith ( Most of the priests I have heard have done that). But **you ** also have an obligation to keep your self updated abouth faith. The cathechism is good for that.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
If you have children, you as a parent have to demonstrate God’s kindness to your children at the same time as you set boundaries for them. You don’t have to teach your 8 year old daughter that abortion is wrong, but it is OK to talk about it to your 13 years old.
The Church is there for you! But it will not take from you the responsibillity of being a good parent to your children (if you have any). 
:getholy:
A book about catholic upbringing: “Parenting with Grace. Catholic parent’s guide to raising almost perfect kids.” by Gregory and Lisa Popcak.
Blessings!
G.Grace
This was my answer to your questison, dbradio:
Now you have turned your questions the other way. You ask:
First you state they (priests and deacons?) do not teach right and wrong anymore and then you wonder why it’s wrong to teach from the pulpit. (I have read the article you posted by Matthew R. Gomez). From your article I get a feeling that what you are asking about are why the priests and deacons don’t teach from the pulpit that abortions, among others, are wrong. And I also get a feeling that you think that the priests and deacons are forbidden to do so.
dbradio; the priests shall talk about the topic for the day, as it is listed in the calender of the Church (it takes three years to go through teh whole Bible. Church-year A+B+C). If the topic of the day are about the mercyful samaritan, the priest doesn’t talk about abortions.
At the first sunday of Advent we started at Church-year A. Link to the readings of Church-year (Click at the day you want and the readings for that day pups up):
easterbrooks.com/cgi-bin/Cathcal.cgi?200501
The priests are to teach right according the catholic faith ( Most of the priests I have heard have done that). But **you ** also have an obligation to keep your self updated abouth faith. The cathechism is good for that.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
If you have children, you as a parent have to demonstrate God’s kindness to your children at the same time as you set boundaries for them. You don’t have to teach your 8 year old daughter that abortion is wrong, but it is OK to talk about it to your 13 years old.
The Church is there for you! But it will not take from you the responsibillity of being a good parent to your children (if you have any).
:getholy:A book about catholic upbringing: “Parenting with Grace. Catholic parent’s guide to raising almost perfect kids.” by Gregory and Lisa Popcak.
Blessings!
G.Grace
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Deacon_Tony560
Guest
Good discussion. The “Home Church” is lacking these days because many adults don’t have any idea what The Catholic Faith teaches. As was said, the priests and deacons take the readings for the day and try to apply them to every day life. The bishops are submitting an adult education book for the faithful. If approved by Rome, this will hopefully begin the process of returning the “Home Church” to where it was. Parents are the first line of faith teachers. This instruction can begin at an early age when the child can touch it’s forehead, chest, and shoulders and hear you say, “In The Name Of The Father And Of The Son And Of The Holy Spirit.”
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mlchance
Guest
Nobody has said it is.
What is wrong is abrogating responsibilities in favor of blaming the Church. Parents have been abrogating their responsibilities for far too long in favor of letting other people take care of things for them.
If you want things fixed, then you do your part to fix them.
– Mark L. Chance.
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puzzleannie
Guest
I have heard all these sins condemned from the various pulpits within the last year. Just because you may not have recently heard sermons on these topics, why do you claim that “homiletics does not allow this any more?” If you have a problem with preaching in your home parish, why not go to the source? How can we help you, we are not in charge of sermons in your parish. to jump from your personal experience to vague generalizations denouncing the entire church practice is a huge leap, and quite frankly, does nothing to spark worthwhile discussion.
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SeekerJen
Guest
Ditto. This isn’t a problem with the universal Church. This is a local problem. Trying to convince us that problems that do not exist in our parishes DO exist in our parishes because no one has morals anymore (and this is also a false generalization) is not going to solve the problem in your parish.
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caroljm36
Guest
People don’t want to be preached to nowadays?? Someone’s feelings might get hurt, someone might feel marginalized! If one of my parish’s priests went off on abortion he’d probably get an earful from the oldtimers who have had 'em, paid for 'em or counseled 'em…so every week we get God is Love, God is Love, God is Love , or something like that.
Obviously the person who started this thread is not being fed. Or maybe he heard Father Shaughnessy on EWTN go off on a moralistic tear and wondered why he never heard that sort of thing at his own parish.
Just a guess.
Obviously the person who started this thread is not being fed. Or maybe he heard Father Shaughnessy on EWTN go off on a moralistic tear and wondered why he never heard that sort of thing at his own parish.
Just a guess.
R
Robotics2ko
Guest
I think dbradio has a point though. Priests have a grave duty to shepherd their flock, and Bishops even moreso because they take a vow to lay their lives for their sheep (although the priest does not). In most parishes I’ve been to, the Gospel is not preached, but rather we get a secular approah to preaching.
To quote Fr. Robert Altier
<<<<<<<
"When we think about our own bishops, when they looked at the scandal which they themselves had caused, they got together about less than a year ago and they declared that the people should have a fast in order to make reparation for the problems the scandal had caused. One bishop out of the entire nation actually had the guts to stand up in front of the rest of them and say what needed to be said: “This is not the problem of the people; this is our fault. The people do not need to fast, we need to fast.” The bishops did not like that idea. It is somebody else’s problem.
…
Saint John Vianney, the great parish priest from Ars, when one of his neighboring priests came to visit him, he said to Saint John Vianney, “I don’t understand. I have been preaching the truth to these people; I have been praying for them; I have been trying to do everything right. I sit in the confessional and no one comes.” Saint John Vianney looked at him and said, “The problem is you don’t fast enough. Begin to fast and your people will come back.” Would that today we would begin to look at this as priests.
To quote Fr. Robert Altier
<<<<<<<
"When we think about our own bishops, when they looked at the scandal which they themselves had caused, they got together about less than a year ago and they declared that the people should have a fast in order to make reparation for the problems the scandal had caused. One bishop out of the entire nation actually had the guts to stand up in front of the rest of them and say what needed to be said: “This is not the problem of the people; this is our fault. The people do not need to fast, we need to fast.” The bishops did not like that idea. It is somebody else’s problem.
…
Saint John Vianney, the great parish priest from Ars, when one of his neighboring priests came to visit him, he said to Saint John Vianney, “I don’t understand. I have been preaching the truth to these people; I have been praying for them; I have been trying to do everything right. I sit in the confessional and no one comes.” Saint John Vianney looked at him and said, “The problem is you don’t fast enough. Begin to fast and your people will come back.” Would that today we would begin to look at this as priests.
- Homily from Friday October 10, 2003
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JimG
Guest
Just generalizing from my own experience over time, I do think this is a valid point.
Homilies today are different from the “sermons” of old, which tended to concern chiefly dogma and morality, and often were given repetitively over the course of years.
Homilists now are expected to use the readings as a starting point. This makes it more difficult if one wants to address a particular moral issue.
And I’ve noticed from working in RCIA that with modern groups, the direct, blunt approach is often needed; otherwise, people just don’t get it–either with respect to morals or dogma.
So while homilies are generally “better” now than in the past, they sometimes just don’t have enough meat and potatoes to make a meal.
- Status