No liberal Catholicism?

[workinprogress]

Theologically, there’s just orthodoxy and heterodoxy. Still, its obvious cultural trends in both the secular world and in the Church’s modern culture have parallels. Lame, communistic unmoving-to-piety art and music, anti-establishment, feminism leaks, ashamed of our unpopular beliefs, feelings over reason, one’s own organization-bashing/loathing, communism, indifferentism, fear of liberals’ labelling, etc. I think those who are liberals in secular society are the same cancerous cells that are liberals (liberalism that goes against Church teaching and dare I say, better wisdom of pre-Vatican 2 teaching) that are hurting the Church greatly.
We can’t listen to them! We are better than that! We don’t need gold to make beautiful church art or to make beautiful Church music—just art that shows one’s love for God and not bad theology, sociology or psychology (totally intrinsic source of spirituality) or false sense of charity to the poor. We have had members of the Church do evil things but we have also done more great things for others than any other religions. We have not killed nearly as much as atheists have (and these are not those who simply don’t believe but are bitter Christians who have eft their faith). Catholics like Mother Theresa and St. Vincent de Paul show that one can be orthodox and super-charitable. Let’s not vote for a candidate whose party is comfortable with the legacy of eugenists or with child porn (virtual or real) and stop the true child abuse–child porn, contraception and abortion, for example. Let’s say that the Catholic Church,not the UN, will bring peace to the world because its body of men is guided in their ecclesial actions by Christ while the other kills 3 world country people and their populations while the wealthy who explot them and those of us who are middle class wealthy chew up all the resources or throw them away.

 

[Riley259]

There is no such thing as liberal Catholicism. You are either Catholic or you are not. If you don’t believe in all that the Catholic church teaches as taught by the Pope and the Magisterium and as is written in the Catechism of the Catholic church then you are not Catholic - plain and simple. Liberal Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, progressive Catholics - they are not Catholics.

 

[csr]

I’m not quite sure what the subject is, but

Catholics like Mother Theresa … show that one can be orthodox and super-charitable.

I thought this might be a time to remind of Mother Theresa’s interest in Buddha. I’m not sure exactly what conclusion to draw. This may be a side-note, however.

 

[Toni]

Riley259:

There is no such thing as liberal Catholicism. You are either Catholic or you are not. If you don’t believe in all that the Catholic church teaches as taught by the Pope and the Magisterium and as is written in the Catechism of the Catholic church then you are not Catholic - plain and simple. Liberal Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, progressive Catholics - they are not Catholics.

No only catholics who are liberal, with their own agendas, picking and chosing from the menus.

 

[John_Higgins]

Riley259:

You are either Catholic or you are not.

So true. Everyone has been baptized Catholic and has not left the Church by a formal intention or by joining another church is a Catholic. You may not like it, but it’s true.

John

 

[JCPhoenix]

csr:

I’m not quite sure what the subject is, butI thought this might be a time to remind of Mother Theresa’s interest in Buddha. I’m not sure exactly what conclusion to draw. This may be a side-note, however.

I would say that really is a topic for another thread.

However, as you posted it, I would remind you and anyone else that to take something out of context is dangerous. Haven’t we all been at the bad end of that at one time or another?

I would also like to suggest that although photos may be worth a thousand words, the real explanation can be worth millions. How does one know she’s not praying for converts? It is well known that Mother Theresa respected the religions of those around her and did effectively facilitate thousands of conversions through her ministry.

Let’s not jump to conclusions.

Regarding this thread…I agree, those who do not hold to Church teachings are not really Catholic…but who’s to stop them from claiming to be so?

We can argue all day long about terms, but in reality the most we can do is pray pray pray and do our best to follow the teachings as we are called to do. We as orthodox Catholics are called to be shining examples of what all should be…if God grants us the grace to do so.

Hope that made sense…I haven’t had my coffee yet and I’m really tired and can’t form complete thoughts!

:yawn:

 

[workinprogress]

Altar rail removals, church art, sacred music, etc. is not unchangeable and thus a liberal in the secular world could be liberal Catholic in that regard and not be outside the Church.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

catholicism is not a dead stagnant religion stuck in the past… it is a growing and alive tradition which sets to meet the needs of the time (if you want to use the term evolution so be it)… this sort of ultra-conservative rhetoric makes me sick!

You posit anyone who does not hold to your position is not a catholic… hmm, wont even jump on that one, for i know i will get an infraction for it.

I think people who make such claimsas yours have not studied the early church at all. All of our doctrines emerged as a result of debate with other forms of early Christianity (which you call heretics, and i will agree with you on this). It is not a sin or a liberal thing to acknowledge that we now understand things and define them explicitly when in the past they were only believed implicitly… we did not have the language to define them otherwise at the time.

And i for one am all for the political left… this notion that one can not be favorable to this type of political atmosphere - and a Christian at the same time - is ignorance of the current disparities perpetuated by our neo-liberal free market set up which does nothing but breed dependency of 3rd world countries on the developed world. I for one am totally for the social gospel and liberation theology… and if the catholic church wasnt so historically conservative - concerning social change and maintaining the status quo - then this debate would not even exist.

You are horribly generalizing and painting an entire tradition with way too broad of a brush just because of your own personal hermeneutic and beliefs!

false sense of charity to the poor. We have had members of the Church do evil things but we have also done more great things for others than any other religions.

You honestly believe such an assertion!? Wow, is all i can say! ALL world traditions have benefited mankind. Don’t believe me explore how tolstoy was influenced by buddhism, who influenced gandhi who then in turn influenced martin luther king. We do not live and exist in a vacuum. Each tradition has allowed for a crossing over into another’s tradition, whereby they then come back with new insight and can put it into a framework with which they are accustomed (i.e. their own faith tradition). Also look up things like socially engaged Buddhism, you are being - to be quite frank - extremely arrogant/ignorant!

p.s. i would argue we as christians have a false sense of charity the poor… historically we did many great things for the poor such as looking after widows, orphans, the sick, etc… but we have no excuse, today, for our lack of advocation for a drastic change in the systematic structural set up of our societies. Our humanitarian aid is nothing but a bandaid solution to a deep wound that will never heal unless we address the underlying problems. So, yes you are right… we do have a false sense of charity… especially in our new and globalized age. We can feel good at night going to bed knowing we gave a couple dollars here and there… without ever having to realize the direct implications that our lifestyle has on the majority of the world.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

for the record i self associate as a super liberal person politically, but that does not mean i am advocating for women ordination, gay rights, or abortion!

THere are teachings in the church that need to evolve. Our reliance on providence and appealing to a divinely ordered society (well we stopped that a couple hundred years ago, thank God) can no longer occur. Who was it that said we must pray as if there was a God but act as if there was none!