No Physical Cause

[MindOverMatter]

1. If all of physical reality began to exist, then there can be no physical cause for the existence of physcal reality.
2. If there is an infinite chain of contingent events, then there can be no physical explanation for the existence of physical reality.

In any case, if we wish to explain physical reality, we must infer the existence of a non-physical, non-random, actuality.

 

[reggieM]

1. If there is an infinite chain of contingent events, then there can be no physical explanation for the existence of physical reality.

I think the arguments against are that:

1. There would be no first cause
2. Whatever cause you look at would be physical
3. Physical reality would simply “be” and not require an explanation
4. The existence of God, His role and purpose would be of little meaning.

The argument against those is that an infinite chain of events is not infinite in every aspect. Thus, it cannot explain itself since it is finite in some respects (and therefore there is something outside of that chain).

An infinite chain of events cannot be infinite in every aspect (since it is still adding events).

 

[TheQuestioner]

I think the arguments against are that:

1. There would be no first cause
2. Whatever cause you look at would be physical
3. Physical reality would simply “be” and not require an explanation
4. The existence of God, His role and purpose would be of little meaning.

The argument against those is that an infinite chain of events is not infinite in every aspect. Thus, it cannot explain itself since it is finite in some respects (and therefore there is something outside of that chain).

An infinite chain of events cannot be infinite in every aspect (since it is still adding events).

Bravo:clapping:

 

[Dtmccameron]

1. If all of physical reality began to exist, then there can be no physical cause for the existence of physcal reality.

:ehh: Oh, you mean, in that, because there was no physical reality abuut for the physical cause to be there? How could there be a physical cause were there no physical reality. Did I get that right?

1. If there is an infinite chain of contingent events, then there can be no physical explanation for the existence of physical reality.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

1. If all of physical reality began to exist, then there can be no physical cause for the existence of physcal reality.
2. If there is an infinite chain of contingent events, then there can be no physical explanation for the existence of physical reality.

In any case, if we wish to explain physical reality, we must infer the existence of a non-physical, non-random, actuality.

to play devils advocate, what will you say when an atheist simply says the universe may be uncaused?

im tired of hearing that argument, its easily dismissed as a fairytale for which there is no emprircal evidence, but that doesnt convince anyone. funny as that is.

are there specific reasons or sources to argue against it on metaphysical grounds?

i ask because you understand the thomist arguments better than me. thanks

 

[TheQuestioner]

to play devils advocate, what will you say when an atheist simply says the universe may be uncaused?

im tired of hearing that argument, its easily dismissed as a fairytale for which there is no emprircal evidence, but that doesnt convince anyone. funny as that is.

are there specific reasons or sources to argue against it on metaphysical grounds?

i ask because you understand the thomist arguments better than me. thanks

The universe could not be uncaused, since all physical things require a cause, and the universe is a physical thing. All physical things require an origin, and the universe is no exception.

Or, more accurately, all changes require a cause. If the universe always existed then what caused it to suddenly change? In the physical realm, things don’t just change, there has to be a cause.

Entropy is increasing throughout the universe. If the universe always existed then there must have been a cause for that change in the nature of entropy. As the universe could not have caused that change itself (since there would have been no cause) the cause would have had to have come from outside of it. Thus, even if the universe did always exist, it still does not exclude the presence of God.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

The universe could not be uncaused, since all physical things require a cause, and the universe is a physical thing. All physical things require an origin, and the universe is no exception.

Or, more accurately, all changes require a cause. If the universe always existed then what caused it to suddenly change? In the physical realm, things don’t just change, there has to be a cause.

Entropy is increasing throughout the universe. If the universe always existed then there must have been a cause for that change in the nature of entropy. As the universe could not have caused that change itself (since there would have been no cause) the cause would have had to have come from outside of it. Thus, even if the universe did always exist, it still does not exclude the presence of God.

true, but im looking for a more formalized argument. MindOverMatter is the resident master of Aquinas.

 

[reggieM]

Bravo:clapping:

Thanks! I just tried to take the atheist position and then knock it down.

 

[reggieM]

The universe could not be uncaused, since all physical things require a cause, and the universe is a physical thing. All physical things require an origin, and the universe is no exception.

Or, more accurately, all changes require a cause. If the universe always existed then what caused it to suddenly change? In the physical realm, things don’t just change, there has to be a cause.

That was good. On the issue of change, that causes a problem for an infinite series. The one danger of changes over time is the potential to lose some aspect of existence. If it was possible to lose some part of the thing in an infinite period of time, then the entire part would eventually be lost. If that part was essential for the sustained existence of the infinite string, then the set of events would cease to exist.

There was a discussion elsewhere about St. Thomas’ acceptance of the possiblity of an infinite universe but I still find that impossible to accept.

Entropy is increasing throughout the universe. If the universe always existed then there must have been a cause for that change in the nature of entropy. As the universe could not have caused that change itself (since there would have been no cause) the cause would have had to have come from outside of it. Thus, even if the universe did always exist, it still does not exclude the presence of God.

That does seem excellent and I wonder what a counter-argument would be.

 

[geometer]

Entropy is increasing throughout the universe.

Why do you say this?